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  • Hhhhappymusic

    5 Things Only Metal Bands Would Do: http://hhhhappy.com/2015/07/17/5-things-only-a-metal-band-would-do/

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  • ThrashGangsters

    Check out ThrashGangsters new video clip "Terror Has Begun" http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ASElY8nkIxw

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  • carli666

    ZİGGURAT - Kudretim Var (2015) New song https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8FH911O1ss

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  • Trash73

    In regards to your statement "if Led Zeppelin can't be considered a folk band because they have too few folk songs?" Yes, they aren't commonly classified as a Folk band for that reason. Likewise, Nu Metal bands can't be considered Rap Rock or Alt. Rock because they have one or two ballads or Hip-Hop collaborations per album. Of course there are other influences throughout, but music is not an exact science so judging the ratio of Metal influences to non-metal influences accurately is virtually impossible. However, if you look at the ratio of pure Hip-Hop tracks/ballads to the heavier songs in "Lost and Found", "Life Is Peachy" or "Vol. 3 The Subliminal Verses" etc. there are more heavier, groove orientated songs.

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  • Trash73

    I made an argument in the Lifelover shoutbox - that they were more Post-Punk than Black Metal here is the screen grab of my arguments. Lifelover are just as much a Rock band as most Nu Metal bands.

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  • Trash73

    Yeah, kind of pointless argument since Metal is not clearly defined. That's not the point though. Nu Metal gets a lot of stick for not being Metal enough when plenty of bands that are commonly classified as Metal can be seen as Rock "as a whole." Lifelover, Theatre of Tragedy (later), (early) Lacuna Coil etc. The rhythm playing in Nu Metal bands were much closer to Metal than those bands I mentioned, although employed slightly differently. Typical metal playing is solos and shredding, but Nu Metal bands did utilize these ideas and used them more for rhythmic playing. For example, Wes Borland is known for his hammer on tapping, and two handed tapping techniques (e.g on "Sour"). The technique would work well in solos, but Borland prefers using them more for rhythmic playing and also for ambient/drone effect by using the idea of drone notes. Also, Borland jumps 4-5 strings to give the effect of a solo (e.g he jumps 5 strings on "My Way") without sticking to typical Metal arpeggio solos

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  • bluegrassishhh

    Right. I agree that some nu bands can be considered metal - we established that a while ago. But nu metal as a whole is still rock, so we're really not getting anywhere with this.

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  • Trash73

    "Most nu bands don't sound like Sepultura, Otep or DD, they sound like P.O.D., Linkin Park, or Papa Roach. Why should such a tiny representation of nu metal w/ actual metal roots allow every other rock-sounding band in the genre to also be called metal " >>> I never said all the bands that media classified as Nu Metal is Metal. I'm sitting on the fence by saying that some Nu Metal is Metal and some isn't. I feel a lot of the 2nd wave of bands that were (loosely) classified of Nu Metal was a cash grab by record labels, that were looking to sign bands who had a fresh sound but still had a Rap-heavy Rock sound. These bands are not Metal, but a lot of the early bands were, in my view. Staind's "Tolerate" had some raw, groovy Black Sabbath type riffs for example.

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  • MikePapapavlou

    Metal Music Festival Survey https://cccusocialsciences.az1.qualtrics.com/SE/?SID=SV_8GEWBrtBdkXZdFH Dear Metal-head brothers and sisters \\m/ Our survey explores recreational nightlife culture and asks questions on your nightlife habits, health, friends and relationships, alcohol and drug use, sexual behaviour and other risk behaviour. The research is completely anonymous and non-judgmental, and the answers you provide will be treated confidentially. We are only interested in the answers you provide us with, not in who you are. Please be frank and honest in all your answers. Dear Metalheads, this survey is for an academic research paper and me and my team would truly appreciate you filling out this survey. Thank you in advance! Keep rocking!

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  • L57NT

    "I'd also make a case that Motorhead were punkish." It's true. However (and I think you've already implied this) early UK hardcore movement was partly (sometimes) influenced by early British heavy metal (Motorhead as the main source of course), especially bands like Discharge. You could find some very d-beat-like structures in some early NWOBHM, take a look here for example. So it's really hard to determine what was more important, and maybe impossible since everything was interconnected from the beginning..

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  • L57NT

    "The heaviness of course was already laid down by Black Sabbath's traditional Doom style but the heavy rhythms didn't come into until Metal crossed over with Punk" Regarding rhythms, maybe so.. I simply rarely think about 'heaviness' out of touch with actual guitar effects. I'd like to remind that we started this conversation by comparing earlier Slayer releases, and I simply argue why there's no significant difference between them in this regard for me subjectively. Actually SNM is my favourite album out of their discography, I believe "Evil has no boundaries" and "Show No Mercy" are more frenetic songs than anything they put on HA or RIB.

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  • L57NT

    "but it seems you are contradicting yourself here since." Not really, I just tried to get up on your point of view for a while, otherwise we have too different perception what defines 'heaviness' and ultimately are not able to discuss anything.

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  • bluegrassishhh

    Damn, 1000 characters is way too little. Anyway... Simply put, I'm saying that the minority shouldn't be so defining. Whatever wave you would prefer represents nu, it's undeniable that the genre has become much softer and otherwise different since Sepultura and the likes were the only thing around. The "newer" bands have next to nothing to do with metal, a lot of them fall close to post-grunge, industrial rock, or even rapcore. And it's pretty much universally accepted that those bands represent the genre, too. There are so many more bands belonging to that type of nu than there is of the kind you're referring to.

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  • bluegrassishhh

    "In regards to calling Nu Metal Alt. Rock, it's like calling Led Zeppelin a Folk band and not a Hard Rock because they have a few Folk songs." I know you're just trying to drive your point home, but no. It's not like that at all. I'm not going to pretend like I've heard every Led Zeppelin song, because I've never been a big fan and so I've never bothered, but I know what you're getting at; and it's an extremely bold comparison. You're putting one band's discography up against an entire genre where the majority of the bands would actually be the equivalents to Zep's folk-ish songs. Most nu bands don't sound like Sepultura, Otep or DD, they sound like P.O.D., Linkin Park, or Papa Roach. Why should such a tiny representation of nu metal w/ actual metal roots allow every other rock-sounding band in the genre to also be called metal - if Led Zeppelin can't be considered a folk band because they have too few folk songs?

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  • Trash73

    "To be honest, the softer bands I'd label alt-rock, the heavier bands with more metal elements I'd probaby call alt-metal. I don't consider alt-metal to be a metal sub-genre either, but at least it has more in common with metal generally than nu does. Classic heaviness with less outside influence, basically." >>> I partially agree with this. I'm not saying ALL Nu Metal is Metal but a lot of is very close. In regards to calling Nu Metal Alt. Rock, it's like calling Led Zeppelin a Folk band and not a Hard Rock because they have a few Folk songs. No one calls Led Zeppelin Folk but everyone mentions the Rap or Alt. Rock ballads done by Nu Metal bands. The heavier bands also are usually Groove Metal with Hardcore or traditional Brazilian sounds (Soulfly, Ektomorf, mid era Sepultura, early DevilDriver, early Chimaira etc.) Those bands are not Alternative Metal at all.

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  • Trash73

    I would argue that Slipknot and Linkin Park, for instance, don't have more in common than Insomnium and Helloween, even though they belong to the same genre. >>> Not all would agree, myself included, that LP are Nu Metal. LP are 2nd wave Nu Metal which was a wave of much more commercialized Nu Metal that included bands who were very loosely Nu Metal (Disturbed, Papa Roach, LP etc.) The 2nd wave removed the heavy grooves laid down by Sepultura and the California trio of early Deftones, Coal Chamber and Korn, and added more mellow soundscapes, DJing, pop song structures and clean vocals and rapping. Nu Metal can be traced back to Mr. Bungle - early Slipknot (Mate. Feed. Kill. Repeat), Korn and even Incubus all had Mr. Bungle chords throughout. Mr. bungle chords also use tritones, which ties them loosly with Black Sabbath riffs. That fact, combined with some Groove Metal (melodic Pantera, Suicidal Tendencies riffing) found in Nu Metal is why some would argue Nu Metal is Metal.

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  • Trash73

    And don't forget about doom metal that took nothing from punk, but actually was the main source of real "heaviness" in my opinion. >>> Depends how we are going to define "really heavy" as I originally stated. The heaviness of course was already laid down by Black Sabbath's traditional Doom style but the heavy rhythms didn't come into until Metal crossed over with Punk. You have Hellhammer's alternation of kick snare beneath cymbals, which gives a very punkish feel. Think Discharge, and even back to Motorhead. There are some incredibly heavy albums which rely on the extremes of Punk - Napalm Death's "Scum", Dark Angel's "Darkness Descends", Bathory's debut etc.

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  • Trash73

    I'd also make a case that Motorhead were punkish. Sure Motorhead had chromatic bass riffs and characteristics that made them Motorhead Metal, but they were Punkish too in that the chords crashed into each other, and the breaks in the music were driven by the bass, rather than expanding harmonies like a lot of Metal bass players do. Motorhead were raw but don't forget they came up in the golden era of Punk - the late 1970s - and that raw sound you describe can be found in bands such as The Exploited.

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  • Trash73

    Back in the 80s USPM and raw speed metal existed, that refined Motorhead, JP, Saxon, Angel Witch, IM influences into thickier and more aggressive sound that developed simultaneously with thrash and could compete easily with thrash metal sometimes. There were some really fast, frentic and even quite chaotic NWOBHM/heavy metal bands as well. >>> Maybe you are right (I do not care much for old school Metal) but it seems you are contradicting yourself here since. Earlier you mentioned that later Slayer was "less melodic, more punkish and raw, yes. But I'd never say "heavier". Yet, here you essentially argue "raw Speed Metal" competes with Thrash in terms of heaviness.

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  • Trash73

    "BM bands do not put the emphasis on the heavy distortion overload, so I would not describe them as "heavy" or "not heavy" at all." >>> Black Metal, and Metal in general, does not only really on volume of distortion for heaviness but also reverb and echo. Xasthur and similar bands are a good example of a lot of reverb. These kind of sonic effects expand the power of the sound and help create a wall of sound. In fact, reverb is a major part of Metal's thick and heavy sound, Black Sabbath defiantly utilized it and I think Judas Priest did as well.

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  • L57NT

    There's some features derived from early bands like Korn, Deftones, Coal Chamber, that a lot of nu metal bands have in common anyway. I think Trash73 gave a good discription in nu metal or alternative metal shoutbox.. Even if it's too broad, it still makes sense regarding a lot of "core" bands of this genre. Black metal has similar fate actually, it does not exist as a real genre already. But all these bands (as diverse as black ambient, dsbm, blackgaze or early 90s raw black) have something in common (general aesthetics, textures, atmosphere), thus "black metal" remains relevant to describe music.

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  • bluegrassishhh

    "I don't think a heavier version of Alt. Rock is a good description of Nu Metal anyway. How would you differ it from Alternative Metal, if that was definition were accurate?" To be honest, the softer bands I'd label alt-rock, the heavier bands with more metal elements I'd probaby call alt-metal. I don't consider alt-metal to be a metal sub-genre either, but at least it has more in common with metal generally than nu does. Classic heaviness with less outside influence, basically.

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  • bluegrassishhh

    Thrash is easily defined and is one of the leading sub-genres of heavy metal, nu is more diverse and a relatively fresh genre with no truly defining sound. I would argue that Slipknot and Linkin Park, for instance, don't have more in common than Insomnium and Helloween, even though they belong to the same genre. Heaviness (subjective as that may be) isn't everything, but when most nu bands draw as much inspiration from anything else (be it reggae, funk, electronica, etc.), I genuinely don't see why you would squeeze them under the same label as most of the other bands on this tag. I realize and appreciate that metal is incredibly diverse, but rock is moreso and that's why it makes sense to me to call it a rock sub-genre instead. I'm not trying to get you to "get it" or anything, that's just my stand.

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  • L57NT

    "Maybe this is true (I only know the American bands well.) Rules in music in regards to genres are almost always a general rule anyway." Yes, but there are rules that are essential for genre to be that genre, and also some rules that are optional. I generally dislike hardcore punk that overuses tempo changes, so in my mind there is no "rigid" connection between this feature and hardcore punk as a whole. This also is the reason why I've never noticed this in Hell Awaits i think.

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  • L57NT

    "I'd include raw Black Metal under the spectrum of heavy music because it is just basically heavy distortion with poor production." Of course black metal is "heavier" than j-pop or something, but BM bands do not put the emphasis on the heavy distortion overload, so I would not describe them as "heavy" or "not heavy" at all. But i'd say that black metal is extreme (though BM is very different, 1st wave black in the vein of Sacrofago or Sodom is one of the most extreme stuff I've ever heard, at least in the spectrum of "rock music"). Some noise rock, sludge, a lot of doom metal, however, are -heavy- indeed.

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  • spineshank155

    I remember having this discussion before in i think the nu metal shoutbox. People consider heavy sounding music differently imo. "I agree with one of your earlier statements that it is subjective, partly because there are different types of heavy. Partly because I theorize that certain areas of the brain respond more to certain types of music than others, which gives the impression the music heavy to some people and not others. If your brain doesn't respond to it then music just sounds flat and lifeless. It can also depend on how jaded the person is to the music." >> yeah, think you described it better than i just did. Think some people have referenced music in general being heavy such as Led Zeppelin, i could be wrong there but i remember some rock bands/songs referred to 'heavy' during the 60's or 70's..

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  • Trash73

    Would you say that free jazz is heavier than most music? Or power electronics? I'd say that "heavy" should refer to something like this [Electric Wizard], for example. >>> Electronic music can be heavy, yes. Alternative Rock and Grunge can be heavy. Not sure about free Jazz though. Even Hip-Hop can be heavy, if it has gritty production and/or a bass heavy beat. I agree with one of your earlier statements that it is subjective, partly because there are different types of heavy. Partly because I theorize that certain areas of the brain respond more to certain types of music than others, which gives the impression the music heavy to some people and not others. If your brain doesn't respond to it then music just sounds flat and lifeless. It can also depend on how jaded the person is to the music.

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  • Trash73

    "There were a lot of hardcore bands that focused strictly on speed, especially in Europe." >>> Maybe this is true (I only know the American bands well.) Rules in music in regards to genres are almost always a general rule anyway. It's like spelling rules in that they are always exceptions. You could say hXc has little melody but then you have bands such as Turning Point who are very melodic for hXc. Back to the point, Slayer for me were always one of the most Punk inspired Thrash bands (especially true out of the big four) and I think that Metal only really started becoming really heavy when it was fused with Punk. Bathory's debut and Hellhammer was punkish, Blasphemy had some Discharge in their sound, old school Death Metal like Possessed was Thrash (obviously Metal + Hardcore) pushed to it's limits and so on.

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  • Trash73

    What the difference between heaviness and extremality then? >>> Heaviness is detuning and drop tuning, distortion & sometimes using pinch harmonics to help get a heavier, crunchier tone. Many bands do this with the guitar, and so I think extreme music is more about the drums & vocals. Extreme music is not just heavy but also extreme in tempo (fast/slow) and often with extremely low pitched or distorted sounds in the vocals. For example, guttural burping style vocals or pig squeals found in Brutal Death Metal and Deathcore. Sometimes the vocals can be distorted, as per Archgoat. I'd include raw Black Metal under the spectrum of heavy music because it is just basically heavy distortion with poor production. Also a lack of much melody & harmony is obviously extreme, but bands can be both melodic and raw, such as Drowning the Light. Heavy has many meanings - heavy distortion/tone, bass heavy or a heavy rhythmic section. It is usually less melodic, but not always as I mentioned with DTL.

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  • L57NT

    "it certainly has punkish tempo changes in certain instances throughout the album." Hmm, I've never paid attention to it specifically to be honest, and assumed that they came to this independently, in natural way. Will check again. Also I must say that frequent rhythmic tempo changes are not the key ingredient to hardcore punk (though quite common). There were a lot of hardcore bands that focused strictly on speed, especially in Europe.

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  • L57NT

    "You would not say that Black Metal is heavier than most music, mainly because it is rawer than most?" What the difference between heaviness and extremality then? Would you say that free jazz is heavier than most music? Or power electronics? I'd say that "heavy" should refer to something like this, for example.

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  • Trash73

    I simply don't feel how HA or RIB are heavier. Less melodic, more punkish and raw, yes. But I'd never say "heavier." >>> I would say rawer and less melodic falls falls under part of the definition of heavier. You would not say that Black Metal is heavier than most music, mainly because it is rawer than most?

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  • Trash73

    (continued) The heavier parts of Punk require China cymbals and Metal started adapting to Crash/China cymbals as hi-hats become more aggressively played. It boils down to the fact that the heaviness was not unique to Metal and Thrash is heavy but it does not mean the heaviness was inspired by Metal. "Jeff was the guy that shaved his head and shared the music he was so inspired by. I enjoyed Dead Kennedy’s, Circle Jerks, Black Flag and the Germs with him. My drumming was getting faster and Jeff was writing original songs with a Punk attitude. The fusion of Heavy Metal and Punk took over Slayers early mediocre style, hence a new force was born. Thank you Jeff for your inspiring discovery of Punk rock that has continued to shape my personal drumming style." Dave Lombordo

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  • Trash73

    Yes, HA has slow crushing heavy parts, but it is not a feature borrowed from hardcore punk, isnt' it? >>> I'd argue the rhythms on "Hell Awaits" don't always stay slow and they frequently change.The tempo's don't change as much as Hellhammer's punky drumming but it certainly has punkish tempo changes in certain instances throughout the album. Frequent and dramatic rhythmic tempo changes are key ingredient to Hardcore Punk - see the intro to Bad Brains' "Big Take Over." The Bad Brains song also builds tension with the drumming as per "Hell Awaits." Also bare in mind it's obviously Metal mixed with HxC, so a slow, marching temp that builds (as per "Hell Awaits") can be really sinister - a key ingredient to Metal. I just think "Show No Mercy" has a more typical Heavy Metal rhythmic section with its gallops and drum rolls. The latter also focuses a lot more melody and leads while the drumming on Hell Awaits is relentless and crushing like a hXc album. (continued)

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  • L57NT

    "I know but I was being very general (as bluegrassishhh was when they said "Nu Metal is just heavier Alt Rock.)" In fact it was my reply to bluegrassishhh, I agree with you on this matter.

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  • L57NT

    "When compared to a lot of later Slayer, the rhythm isn't as thick and heavy, the solos aren't as atonal and chaotic, and the leads aren't raw" I agree with this basically, this is about what I meant saying about more melodic metal influences, while at its core music is already based on hardcore punk rhythm patterns and song stucture have changed accordingly. I think we understand each other here, but I'm still confused about your statement on heaviness. I simply don't feel how HA or RIB are heavier. Less melodic, more punkish and raw, yes. But I'd never say "heavier", not to mention that this heaviness doesn't stem from the punk. Yes, HA has slow crushing heavy parts, but it is not a feature borrowed from hardcore punk, isnt' it?

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  • Trash73

    No mention of Alt. Rock here either: "I think that Bizkit kind of took more aggressive heavy riffs along the lines of Suicidal Tendencies and Pantera and simplified them a little bit and added a little of bit of melody and ending up having something that got popular, you know?" Wes Borland

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  • Trash73

    OK, here's the proper quote: "In the ’90s we tried to do something with metal, to take it into a new direction, based on combining metal bands with stuff that was on the heels of the grunge movement, like Helmet and Primus and even Pantera and the Melvins — taking those Helmet slaughterhouse riffs and combining it with like Carcass riffs and treating it more like a hip-hop Ministry song." Wes Borland

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  • Trash73

    Finally, I don't think a heavier version of Alt. Rock is a good description of Nu Metal anyway. How would you differ it from Alternative Metal, if that was definition were accurate? I read in an Wes Borland interview that he would describe Limp Bizkit as a simplified, Hip-Hop version of Ministry and that is a much better description.

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  • Trash73

    Lastly "heaviness" is a bad criterion to argue whether nu metal is metal or not, since it's obviously heavier/rougher than Stratovarius or Edguy, for example. >>> I know but I was being very general (as bluegrassishhh was when they said "Nu Metal is just heavier Alt Rock.) Generally, Heavy Metal is just heavier Hard Rock, was my counter that general statement - which goes back to my point that Metal isn't clearly defined and so bluegrassishhh's statement on Nu Metal not being Metal are meaningless. Define it? Heavy Metal usually has less overt Blues riff styling than Hard Rock. Of course, that is not always the case and Heavy Metal has obviously evolved so much since it's roots, borrowing from so many different styles Where do you draw the line?

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  • Trash73

    "Actually "Show No Mercy" has enough of punk influence already, especially at its fast moments." The riffing is mostly Judas Priest & NWOBHM style riffs, just sped up. When compared to a lot of later Slayer, the rhythm isn't as thick and heavy, the solos aren't as atonal and chaotic, and the leads aren't raw. All these are a feature of HxC. For example, later Slayer has a lot more atonal solos, as Black Flag does. Sure it has enough Punk influence to be Thrash but SNM is (mostly) the Speed Metal side of Thrash Metal (as is a lot of Megadeth.)

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  • Trash73

    Actually I don't understand at all why do you say that it's "more fast than heavy" in relation to the next Slayer's albums. >>> I wasn't comparing Slayer albums. I just don't consider "Show No Mercy" to be that heavy. What stands out to me more is the speed of the riffs. If you want to compare though, "Hell Awaits" is a lot slower in places (listen to the intro of the title track) but it's certainly heavier. A bit like ...and Justice For All, which is also slower but heavy in a crushing, almost Doom Metal like, manner.

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  • L57NT

    Regarding all this discussion about "heaviness" I think it's too subjective. Some people would say that only trad doom metal and its extreme derivatives are heavy. In my opinion it makes sense. I personally try to avoid resorting to the "heaviness" at all, while talking about music. Lastly "heaviness" is a bad criterion to argue whether nu metal is metal or not, since it's obviously heavier/rougher than Stratovarius or Edguy, for example.

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  • L57NT

    Actually "Show No Mercy" has enough of punk influence already, especially at its fast moments. What mainly distinguishes it from the next release, is noticeable "Iron Maiden-ish" melodic influence (that had vanished soon), not a lack of hadcore punk itself. Actually I don't understand at all why do you say that it's "more fast than heavy" in relation to the next Slayer's albums.

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  • Trash73

    Also I would say the Punk makes Thrash heavy, not the Metal. Listen to Thrash without much Punk influence like "Show No Mercy" and "Rust In Peace" and it's more fast than heavy.

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  • Trash73

    all those subgenres are considerably heavier than nu (and thus closer to metal)." Find me some Folk or Gothic Metal heavier than Caustic Method - "The Virus" ] or iBurn - "Lashing Out"

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  • bluegrassishhh

    Yeah, I feel the same way about the modern kind, for the most part... Metallic hardcore is really good imo, but the newer bands are only good if you grew up with them. At least that's the case with me; nostalgia rules over all else. Nobody actually enjoys KSE without the childhood memories, right??? And trash73, I'm really not trying to differ with you or anything, it's just that all those subgenres are considerably heavier than nu (and thus closer to metal). I suppose you're right about the stigma though. I don't feel strongly about distancing myself from nu, but I just think it's far too soft and random (or varied, in this setting) to be considered metal. Alt-rock is a pretty appropriate catch-all term in my mind, but then again I'm really drunk right now and as I'm writing this I've completely forgotten what I'm talking about. Sorry.

    maj 2015
  • Trash73

    I don't think anyone is arguing whether Nu Metal is pure Metal, it clearly isn't. It is where you draw the line as to "what is Metal" is where some fans feel there is a stigma against Nu Metal. Particularly, when the borders of Metal are stretched elsewhere to suit some bands (e.g. Lifelover - Post-Punk, Sunn o))) - Drone/Ambient etc.) but the borders are cut off for some Nu Metal bands which are closer to Metal (early Mudvayne, Ektomorf, later Slipknot, Coal Chamber etc.)

    maj 2015
  • Trash73

    "I just think it's far-fetched to consider bands that draw nearly equal inspiration from hip-hop/electro/funk as rock/metal to belong to the same style that bred doom, death, and speed metal." You could also argue Thrash Metal and Grindcore takes equal inspiration from Hardcore and Crust Punk, Folk Metal takes equal inspiration from Folk music, Gothic Metal takes equal inspiration from Goth Rock etc. Plus, Faith No More are considered Metal (and they fuse Metal with 2 of the genres you mentioned and many others.) http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Faith_No_More/983

    maj 2015
  • L57NT

    "What type of metalcore are you thinking of? The modern kind, metallic hardcore, or are you just being general? " I'm thinking of both. I'd say that 90s metallic hardcore sounds like a better version of groove metal in general... or something like that. Late 00s metalcore is often a poppy chugging melo-death, bordering sometimes on alternative rock and etc. I don't consider both as "shitty" anymore though.

    maj 2015