• Good and Evil

    To continue the shoutbox discussion...

    There's no problem a few frag grenades can't fix.

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    My Twin in life, love, mind, and music: ISoS
    The snake that cannot shed its skin perishes. So do the spirits who are prevented from changing their opinions; they cease to be spirit. -Nietzsche
  • Re: Good and Evil

    8GotH8 said:
    yeah do that.Open a thread. and then i can reply to evigdauden . :)

    Okay reply here


    • 8GotH8 sa...
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    • 6 nov 2010, 05:15
    good and evil are all too subjective to be definitive. In my opinion I find the bible to be a tool for control. it would be too easy for people to think for themselves.

    i know that evil and good are subjective to every culture, but i think to western cultures it's about the same, so you should know by what i mean what evil or good may be. well, i do,also, think that religion is used by certain people as a tool to control people. But, as i said before religion itself can also be evil. for example: I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world.-DAWKINS<---------this is what i mean by religion beign evil and other examples that i could give you.

    Monday, 29 January, 1932:
    Something has happened to me, I can't doubt it any more.
  • Some things can be clearly defined as good and evil, but others can't be, wat may seem evil to someone may to good to someone else, its all comes down to perception!

  • But, as i said before religion itself can also be evil. for example: I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world.
    But is that in itself evil? It may be useless, obsolete or stupid, but "evil" sounds a bit over the edge.

    Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
    • 8GotH8 sa...
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    • 6 nov 2010, 19:34
    yes, it can be evil for example:if were to ONLY follow the holy scriptures, let's say the bible, then we would all be ignorant of the wonders of not only the world, but the universe! wouldn't you love to know how it feels to live in another planet?
    to encounter other creatures and learn their languages, culture, philosophies, etc?
    to understand why there are thunders, how everything was created!?
    don't you think it'd be evil to let humanity be ignorant of all these possible findings? maybe am exaggerating but, that's how i see it, if am wrong, please correct me.

    Monday, 29 January, 1932:
    Something has happened to me, I can't doubt it any more.
    • 8GotH8 sa...
    • Användare
    • 6 nov 2010, 19:34
    yes, it can be evil for example:if were to ONLY follow the holy scriptures, let's say the bible, then we would all be ignorant of the wonders of not only the world, but the universe! wouldn't you love to know how it feels to live in another planet?
    to encounter other creatures and learn their languages, culture, philosophies, etc?
    to understand why there are thunders, how everything was created!?
    don't you think it'd be evil to let humanity be ignorant of all these possible findings? maybe am exaggerating but, that's how i see it, if am wrong, please correct me.

    Monday, 29 January, 1932:
    Something has happened to me, I can't doubt it any more.
  • 8GotH8 said:
    yes, it can be evil for example:if were to ONLY follow the holy scriptures, let's say the bible, then we would all be ignorant of the wonders of not only the world, but the universe! wouldn't you love to know how it feels to live in another planet?
    to encounter other creatures and learn their languages, culture, philosophies, etc?
    to understand why there are thunders, how everything was created!?
    don't you think it'd be evil to let humanity be ignorant of all these possible findings? maybe am exaggerating but, that's how i see it, if am wrong, please correct me.

    I think the ignorance is actually the very bottom of the evils the bible teaches. I think the violence towards dissenters and nonbelievers is what I would worry about. History repeats itself over a course of time. I think personally if these churches were given the opportunity I think man could easily be sent back to the dark ages and any modern knowledge we have could easily be suppressed for thousands of years. I find any religion that gives the ok to ostracize and harm human beings for no reason except not believing what they do is evil.
    here is a loving example of kind christian behavior:
    http://articles.cnn.com/2009-03-11/world/brazil.rape.abortion_1_excommunicated-abortion-innocent-life?_s=PM:WORLD


  • 8GotH8 said:
    yes, it can be evil for example:if were to ONLY follow the holy scriptures, let's say the bible, then we would all be ignorant of the wonders of not only the world, but the universe! wouldn't you love to know how it feels to live in another planet?
    to encounter other creatures and learn their languages, culture, philosophies, etc?


    I would, but I can't say that someone who doesn't is evil. The religion itself is supposed to propose a set of beliefs rather than force them, even if the opposite usually happens.
    The holy scriptures aren't religion - remember that jews and christians have common scripture and interpret it differently. In fact, christians themselves have a bunch of different religions based on the same book. Not all denominations are the same. In the past there were some that advocated a lifestyle and beliefs whose pacifism and socialism (for lack of a better word) have nothing to do with current christianity - mainly because the Popes hunted them down. Argueably, the bible is closer to the "evil" side of christianity, but religion is, ultimately, composed of more than that.

    Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
  • Again, you have to separate religion to religious people. What people interpret in the bible can be seen as amoral interpretations (e.g. it is all right to condemn homosexuals) but the bible can never interpret things for people. This is a very important definition to understand. What people do or not do with the bible is entirely up to them. The bible is just a book with some useless scribbles in it, scribbles that we claim to understand. However, it does not mean that we actually understand what is being written down because it depends on a) our own social and cultural context and b) the social and cultural context the text was written and c) our understanding of a) and b).

    Therefore, religion itself can never be evil or not even bad. It is a tool, an object. It is how people use it that matters. Some choose to emphasize the bad parts from OT, others the loving part from NT. None of these understandings are wrong - they are instead complementary and reflect the many ways a person can understand the bible.

    The Quran cannot stone women, but people who read the Quran can.

  • LeaTelamon said:
    Again, you have to separate religion to religious people. What people interpret in the bible can be seen as amoral interpretations (e.g. it is all right to condemn homosexuals) but the bible can never interpret things for people. This is a very important definition to understand. What people do or not do with the bible is entirely up to them. The bible is just a book with some useless scribbles in it, scribbles that we claim to understand. However, it does not mean that we actually understand what is being written down because it depends on a) our own social and cultural context and b) the social and cultural context the text was written and c) our understanding of a) and b).

    Therefore, religion itself can never be evil or not even bad. It is a tool, an object. It is how people use it that matters. Some choose to emphasize the bad parts from OT, others the loving part from NT. None of these understandings are wrong - they are instead complementary and reflect the many ways a person can understand the bible.

    The Quran cannot stone women, but people who read the Quran can.


    I respectively disagree with you. the quran and bible have obvious texts that promote destructive behaviors. These text were wrote by people who had their own motivations. Quite honestly I think the people who wrote the new testament were mentally insane.


  • I respectively disagree with you. the quran and bible have obvious texts that promote destructive behaviors. These text were wrote by people who had their own motivations. Quite honestly I think the people who wrote the new testament were mentally insane.


    You're talking about an era when Romans threw people to the lions for fun, and a while later most of europe was constantly being raided by Goths, Huns, Saxons, etc. What today seems destructive behaviour was then quite standard. Granted, there are other ancient texts that are philosophically far superior and ethically far more timeless, but that's why the bible became a work of religion and Socrates' words a work of philosophy.
    Ok, the guy who wrote Revelation must have been looney.

    Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
  • VampyreAngel said:
    I respectively disagree with you. the quran and bible have obvious texts that promote destructive behaviors. These text were wrote by people who had their own motivations. Quite honestly I think the people who wrote the new testament were mentally insane.


    You're talking about an era when Romans threw people to the lions for fun, and a while later most of europe was constantly being raided by Goths, Huns, Saxons, etc. What today seems destructive behaviour was then quite standard. Granted, there are other ancient texts that are philosophically far superior and ethically far more timeless, but that's why the bible became a work of religion and Socrates' words a work of philosophy.
    Ok, the guy who wrote Revelation must have been looney.


    that is what gets me is there were far more intellectually and morally advanced
    texts in Mediterranean and middle eastern region.


    • 8GotH8 sa...
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    • 8 nov 2010, 21:31
    i still don't think you are right leatelamon, so i'll give you another example...

    e.g.: the 7 heavenly virtues are quite good, well 'cept for chastity. But, see this is something good from religion...

    e.g.: now, when god told abraham to give his only begotten child as a sign of love towards god... now that's evil! BUT! which i kinda agree with you is that to my point of view and most, if not all, atheists or believers of other religions may look at this and think that yahweh is an evil god for asking abraham to do this.
    However, for a x-tian this seems almost as a heroic(!!??) act done by him because it's showing his faith to god,even if that means to kill his only child.

    so yeah, what may seem as evil and cruel,etc, to me, may seem rather heroic, good, etc. to others...but, i think this is due to the fact that they are brainwashed...And, also good and evil can extremely change from one culture to another just as ike beauty can be seen as ugly to others.

    So now we would have to get into a philosophical point of view on good and evil , which i wouldn't be able to since am just starting to read about philosophy.

    Monday, 29 January, 1932:
    Something has happened to me, I can't doubt it any more.
  • But the thing is, human sacrifice, since you mentioned it, is common to many cultures. Aztecs, Egyptians, Chinese, Greeks, all went through that stage. It's not really about being evil, it's a civilisation check point of sorts. The difference is that Christians still defend it by claiming that it didn't actually happen (God stopped it at the last moment!). That is a problem of the modern christian and jewish religion, but in my opinion, not of the ancient jewish religion - back then it was just another day of religious rites.

    Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
    • 8GotH8 sa...
    • Användare
    • 9 nov 2010, 20:43
    oh yeah dude i know that a 100% i mean back in the day that was perfectly natural and good because you were honoring your god.

    Monday, 29 January, 1932:
    Something has happened to me, I can't doubt it any more.
  • 8GotH8 said:
    oh yeah dude i know that a 100% i mean back in the day that was perfectly natural and good because you were honoring your god.

    It was perfectly acceptable then. Human sacrifice today would be considered wrong. I wouldn't say though the Egyptian ,Aztec,Greek or Chinese cultures were evil because of one negative aspect. Modern day Christianity and Judaism have enough negative aspects today that is worth arguing over instead of long dead history.


    • 8GotH8 sa...
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    • 10 nov 2010, 23:14
    you mean like the spreading of ignorance A.K.A. creationism or the fancy name but, yet still stupid, Intelligent Design

    the brainwashing of kids, e.g.: jesus camp

    no equallity for all, such as gay marriage

    ummoral teachings, such as the mutiliation of babies

    the weakness of people, such as the need of god for a meaning to life

    controlled by tradition, culture, peer pressure, authority,etc.

    RELGIONS MUST BE ELIMINATED,

    Monday, 29 January, 1932:
    Something has happened to me, I can't doubt it any more.
  • 8GotH8 said:

    the weakness of people, such as the need of god for a meaning to life

    controlled by tradition, culture, peer pressure, authority,etc.

    RELGIONS MUST BE ELIMINATED,

    Is the concept culture, tradition and the search for a god for a meaning of life really weakness? Or is it the ideas behind them? People with weak minds will succumb to any stupid idea. I am against religion that infects itself to society the way the abrahamic faiths have.


  • I respectively disagree with you. the quran and bible have obvious texts that promote destructive behaviors. These text were wrote by people who had their own motivations. Quite honestly I think the people who wrote the new testament were mentally insane.


    This is a typical case of what I was talking about. How does a) and b) lead you to understand c)? Like Vampy was saying, the kind of behavior described in the bible was accepted back then. There are plenty of violent texts out there who may express similar ideas like those found in the bible, but why then aren't you reacting as strongly against those?

    Yesterday one of my seminar conferences was about how there is a prejudice towards heavy metal and this was shown by measuring the importance and meaning of two different texts; one of Rammstein and another of Goethe. Even though the Goethe text was in fact more violent as it described rape whereas the Rammstein text simply described a case of unrequited love, the Rammstein text was considered more violent than the Goethe text when non-metal fans were given the information that the text was in fact written by Rammstein.

    I see parallels in the way you are acting towards the bible as the results shown in this study. Again, a piece of paper can never carry any kind of meaning. It is that - a piece of paper, an object. An object cannot have abstract attributes such as violent, even though we may think that the text written on that paper may have a violent context. When you say that you think the bible promotes violent behavior, then you are APPLYING meaning to the bible.

    but, i think this is due to the fact that they are brainwashed..
    So, I just have to clarify this. Brainwashing does not exist in the definition that we usually understand brainwashing. The US government tried performed brainwashing experiments for many years and their results were that it was not possible. When it comes to religion, again, one has to consider the individual's own agency and their actual WILL in partaking in a religion that may be considered to "brainwash" people.

    To me, brainwashing is more the typical collective vs individuality issue, and symbolizes other things within society rather than removing the agency of people. Yes, individuality loses meaning when it's a part of a collective, but aren't we ALL part of a collective in one or another sense? As a social animal, you need to be a part of a social environment to function. Removing people completely from any social contact for extended amounts of time can cause severe mental illness. We always want to have a sense of belonging that gives us life meaning. I would say that people who seek out religions that are perceived to brainwash in fact just are looking for this meaning and they find it in religion.

  • LeaTelamon said:
    but, i think this is due to the fact that they are brainwashed..
    So, I just have to clarify this. Brainwashing does not exist in the definition that we usually understand brainwashing. The US government tried performed brainwashing experiments for many years and their results were that it was not possible. When it comes to religion, again, one has to consider the individual's own agency and their actual WILL in partaking in a religion that may be considered to "brainwash" people.

    To me, brainwashing is more the typical collective vs individuality issue, and symbolizes other things within society rather than removing the agency of people. Yes, individuality loses meaning when it's a part of a collective, but aren't we ALL part of a collective in one or another sense? As a social animal, you need to be a part of a social environment to function. Removing people completely from any social contact for extended amounts of time can cause severe mental illness. We always want to have a sense of belonging that gives us life meaning. I would say that people who seek out religions that are perceived to brainwash in fact just are looking for this meaning and they find it in religion.

    I think wanting to belong to a certain group is natural to humans. Individuality and being collective aren't mutually exclusive. It's when unnatural ideas becoming acceptable that separates the individual and the collective. this being the case with the abrahamic faiths. I think everyone is looking for answers to life but many weak minded people settle on unstable ideas instead of continuously searching.


    • afz902k sa...
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    • 12 nov 2010, 16:18
    I think good and evil are subjective, what we perceive or accept as "good" or "evil" in the western world is just a tacit social contract and by no means does it really give the things we label as "good" or "evil" a true good or evil nature. I for one refuse to even use the terms seriously in this manner.

    I never mean what I post.
  • It's when unnatural ideas becoming acceptable that separates the individual and the collective

    It's still a socially constructed opinion. 70 or so years ago, we thought that about homosexuals, too. You can call it anything you want, but I really want people to look beyond unnatual, good, evil, bad and so on. They are way too relative to bear much meaning, particularly if you aren't interested to expand what you mean.

    Let's take it from this angle: the black metal movement often expresses that social behavior that is generally not accepted to be accepted, and because of this, people who really are into black metal think they are more individualistic than say, Christians. My point here being that are they, really?

    It is as equally important what people think of themselves like we think about them. It is way too easy to ascribe different meanings based on prejudice and so on when you lack an insider perspective.

  • LeaTelamon said:
    It's when unnatural ideas becoming acceptable that separates the individual and the collective

    LeaTelamon said:It's still a socially constructed opinion. 70 or so years ago, we thought that about homosexuals, too. You can call it anything you want, but I really want people to look beyond unnatual, good, evil, bad and so on. They are way too relative to bear much meaning, particularly if you aren't interested to expand what you mean.

    I understand what you are saying. I don't think you could possibly get an actual answer but an opinion. Everything is relative in terms of morals. I don't see homosexuality as unnatural but I'm sure there are a lot of christians that have the same view as 70 years ago. I personally see suppression of human rights
    as unnatural



    LeaTelamon said:Let's take it from this angle: the black metal movement often expresses that social behavior that is generally not accepted to be accepted, and because of this, people who really are into black metal think they are more individualistic than say, Christians. My point here being that are they, really?

    You would have to ask the individual themselves.I can't speak for the black metal scene but for myself. I am pretty sure there are sheep in the scene. But what I think we need to keep in mind The black metal scene is not a ruling majority of modern society. Gorgoroth fans don't affect major political issues (abortion,gay rights,teaching of evolution in schools).Christian political leaders do however affect major political issues. This would be my bias against christianity.
    LeaTelamon said:It is as equally important what people think of themselves like we think about them. It is way too easy to ascribe different meanings based on prejudice and so on when you lack an insider perspective.

    All ideas from me are from my own experiences. I don't suscribe to whatever idea is the flavor of the month.


    • 8GotH8 sa...
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    • 12 nov 2010, 23:55
    i see your point leatelamon... So you are basiccaly saying that religion(tool) in itself can have any impact but, according to how someone uses religion(tool), is how it's perceived right?

    You would have to ask the individual themselves.I can't speak for the black metal scene but for myself. I am pretty sure there are sheep in the scene. But what I think we need to keep in mind The black metal scene is not a ruling majority of modern society. Gorgoroth fans don't affect major political issues (abortion,gay rights,teaching of evolution in schools).Christian political leaders do however affect major political issues. This would be my bias against christianity.

    that's a good answer for black metal.

    Monday, 29 January, 1932:
    Something has happened to me, I can't doubt it any more.
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