• afz902k said:
    Yeah, I still think Satanism may be just a little broader than for example Christianity (and similar religions), because for example I doubt people who deem "God" as metaphorical could really call themselves Christians. On the other hand it might not be as broad as some far-eastern "religions".


    Well, there are Christian demoninations who consider god an alien, so I wouldn't really call it that far-fetched. And many Christians have a personal belief in god rather as an active force in the universe, just like LaVeyan Satanists do.

  • If "satanism" has come to mean an opposition to everything conventional, is this really to be desired ? I mean does it provide genuine liberation to simply do against the commonly-accepted, or is it yet another dogmatic attitude that seems liberated due to the fact that it gives more freedom of movement, but ends up to also be limiting in another way ?


    This question is tricky since it completely depends who you are asking and what kind of Satanism they worship. However, there is a red line streaming through all types of worship that puts a great emphasis on the individual and that the individual's needs should always come first. So far that I've gotten into my thesis, I'd dare say that Satanism epitomizes the Western post-modern ideas of how to live, while at the same time, paradoxically, wanting to recreate something which no longer exists in our society by mystifying our existences. It is doing this by moving away from the extreme scientific rationalism and efficiency we saw during and after the Industrialism, and this is very common among all other forms of NRR (new religious movement) and New Age. Specifically, in black metal, since this is the kind of Satanism I ultimately study, not LaVeyan Satanism, there is an apocalyptic idea that this world is coming to its end and they are going to help to achieve it. Thomas Bossius wrote in a thesis that there is a resignation within the (black metal) movement, showing that they no longer believe it is doable to work for human rights, equality between genders and happiness for everyone, so instead they do the complete opposite because that way they will avoid becoming disappointed over and over when it turns out it will not work. Again, a common idea in other forms of NRR and NA, although not necessarily apocalyptic in character. By becoming the victimizers instead of the victims, the Satanists (of black metal) have thus resigned to the idea that the world is ultimately rotten and there is nothing they can do about it, so instead they will try to hurry up the process.

    To summarize and actually answer your questions, Satanism isn't quite the oppositition of everything conventional, as Satanism or at least, it's kinder and lesser form, anichristianity, has become a part of the popular culture. While a person may raise their eyebrow if you tell them you're a Satanist or antichristian and think that you're a bit of a weirdo, I don't think they will do much more than that (in the rest of the world except USA and Poland anyway). Satanism itself has become conventional because it embodies the individualism we've seen progressing since more or less the Antique. I wouldn't say that Satanism provides liberation either, but it what it does provide is a sense of self and a feeling of identity and knowing who you are and your place in this world, just like it is following any other kind of ideology. If anything, the only thing Satanism does liberate the individual from, is the feeling from being a victim of greater powers that what you can personally influence. (Black metal) Satanism is dogmatic to a greater or lesser extent. It is a very exclusive religion and few people can be proven to be truly authentic. At the same time there is a paradox in that you cannot be TOO evil. People still look down upon Varg Vikernes because he crossed a line which somehow isn't really accepted, all the lyrics writing about mass-genocides, the slaughter of Christians and other religious folks alike and the ultimate destruction of this world. Despite all the focus on the individual and the individual needs, there is still a feeling of a collective and the collective decides of what is accepted or not. So yes, it's limiting the indivdual freedom in such a way that you cannot be whoever you want as a Satanist, no matter how diffuse these social rules and boundaries may be, for example in the shape of resignation, which is again, a paradox. Through action lack of action is performed.

  • Some questions

    I've been stumbling through a few 'satanic' websites recently. Came across some pretty stupid stuff. A lot of it seems intertwined with some of the underground black metal bands.

    So I'll ask - what is the definition, or idea of 'anti-cosmic satanism'. And no, I didn't make that term up.

    More interestingly, they all keep using the number 218. Or 'Current 218'. What is this?

    www.templeoftheblacklight.net/ for anyone that's interested.

  • I have not experienced 218 anywhere throghout my studies. I can however point to various articles, books and other material that study Satanism if you are interested. I wouldn't even dare to summarize it here, but there has been a growing interest in the subject from an academic level which at least is great.

    Anyway, just a short drop down list.

    Contemporary Religious Satanism: A Critical Anthology by Jesper Aaagard Petersen
    There is a chapter devoted to the Satanism in black metal as well which I used a lot in my own thesis for those who are specifically interested in that. The book can be accessed for free on Google books as well it seems.

    There is also a forthcoming book called Violence and New Religious Movements with Petersen again as editor. I have an article extract but unfortunately I am not allowed to share it because I was given it in confidence solely because of my thesis.

    Controversial New Religions also got a chapter regarding Satanism.

    For Swedish readers, there is also a book by Thomas Bossius who more explicitly explores the religiosity in black metal called Med framtiden i backspegeln: black metal- och transkulturen. Ungdomar, musik och religion i en senmodern värld .

    Then of course there is Lords of Chaos by Michael Moynihan and Didrik Söderlind (I can't do the Norwegian/Danish ö...) which focuses more on Satanism in black metal as well, but more in a political perspective.

    I've also kept some mail contact with Petersen and he's also recommended some works I haven't even managed to get into yet, including Asbjørn Dyrendal's Satanisme og populærkultur for Scandinavians, Devilish Consumption: Popular Culture in Satanic Socialization, Satanism and Popular Music and Gavin Baddeley's Lucifer Rising.

    So for those who are interested in the topic... in fact, maybe it's time to revive that Book thread and just add a drop down list of litterature for people who are interested in specific subjects.

  • current 218 on wikipedia redirects to the band Dissection, for no obvious reason.\
    Also, § 218 of the German StGB legal code is the section that relates to abortion, which seems irrelevant but there is a tag "218" on last.fm to which someone has added the band Abortion XI. Which has about 0 listeners.
    It's also the date that the wonderfully absurd Elagabalus was declared Roman Emperor.

    I can’t think of any greater happiness than to be with you all the time, without interruption, endlessly, even though I feel that here in this world there’s no undisturbed place for our love, neither in the village nor anywhere else; and I dream of a grave, deep and narrow, where we could clasp each other in our arms as with clamps, and I would hide my face in you and you would hide your face in me, and nobody would ever see us any more.
  • Thomas Bossius wrote in a thesis that there is a resignation within the (black metal) movement, showing that they no longer believe it is doable to work for human rights, equality between genders and happiness for everyone, so instead they do the complete opposite because that way they will avoid becoming disappointed over and over when it turns out it will not work.

    Do you know where i can find this in english?

  • Thomas Bossius wrote in a thesis that there is a resignation within the (black metal) movement, showing that they no longer believe it is doable to work for human rights, equality between genders and happiness for everyone, so instead they do the complete opposite because that way they will avoid becoming disappointed over and over when it turns out it will not work.
    ha, that is a pretty stupid idea! No offense, Thomas Bossius.

    I can’t think of any greater happiness than to be with you all the time, without interruption, endlessly, even though I feel that here in this world there’s no undisturbed place for our love, neither in the village nor anywhere else; and I dream of a grave, deep and narrow, where we could clasp each other in our arms as with clamps, and I would hide my face in you and you would hide your face in me, and nobody would ever see us any more.
  • That was the band I found it on, VampyreAngel.

    Thankyou, Lea, I'll be sure to look into them, especially the black metal ones. Damn, what do you study to get to right about black metal?

    This is why the 218 thing is annoying, apparently they 'only tell the chosen' (in their own words) but it must be out there somewhere.

  • I can’t think of any greater happiness than to be with you all the time, without interruption, endlessly, even though I feel that here in this world there’s no undisturbed place for our love, neither in the village nor anywhere else; and I dream of a grave, deep and narrow, where we could clasp each other in our arms as with clamps, and I would hide my face in you and you would hide your face in me, and nobody would ever see us any more.
  • Baazelbub said:
    Thomas Bossius wrote in a thesis that there is a resignation within the (black metal) movement, showing that they no longer believe it is doable to work for human rights, equality between genders and happiness for everyone, so instead they do the complete opposite because that way they will avoid becoming disappointed over and over when it turns out it will not work.
    Do you know where i can find this in english?


    Sorry, you can't. It's not published outside Sweden. It's not even listed on Amazon.

  • Apollyon_ said:
    That was the band I found it on, VampyreAngel.

    Thankyou, Lea, I'll be sure to look into them, especially the black metal ones. Damn, what do you study to get to right about black metal?

    This is why the 218 thing is annoying, apparently they 'only tell the chosen' (in their own words) but it must be out there somewhere.


    Socialanthropology, the field where you can study anything and still turn out scientific ;) I could ask Petersen if he has encountered 218 and if he knows what it would mean though.

  • VampyreAngel said:
    Thomas Bossius wrote in a thesis that there is a resignation within the (black metal) movement, showing that they no longer believe it is doable to work for human rights, equality between genders and happiness for everyone, so instead they do the complete opposite because that way they will avoid becoming disappointed over and over when it turns out it will not work.
    ha, that is a pretty stupid idea! No offense, Thomas Bossius.


    Well, after studying the movement in more detail... I actually have to agree.

  • Haha, nice, nice.

    Anthropology - the study of humanity + social studies/effects etc?

    Sounds interesting at any rate :P

  • Apollyon_ said:
    Haha, nice, nice.

    Anthropology - the study of humanity + social studies/effects etc?

    Sounds interesting at any rate :P


    The study of humanity and its social interaction, more like. Although I think social is a bit limiting and the american culture is probably a better term.

  • Ah, would like to study something similar when I reach that stage. Well, that or journalism.

    • jorrizza sa...
    • Användare
    • 28 apr 2010, 19:11
    VampyreAngel said:
    http://www.templeoftheblacklight.net/main.html ? It's kind of interesting
    I've heard of it before, but I've never spoken to anyone claiming to be a member. All I know is that it's rather small and not affiliated to the two big LaVeyan Satanic churches.

    That said, I've got no clue whether these guys are theistic or not. They've published a grimoire, which I haven't read (yet), supposedly founded upon wisdom of old hidden cults that I've never heard about either. Their texts overflow with references to deities, gnosticism and numerology. It could be some kind of projection of self, the universe or whatever abstraction they might conjure up in a symbolic way. When I've read some of their rites, I might pinpoint some of their influences.

    The left hand path doesn't really play well with theism, now I come to think of it. They do claim to follow that path. So I'd put my $0.02 on a symbolic-gnostic pseudo-mythical Satanist organization with heavy occult influences.

    The awesome link of flaming death, epic destruction and pancakes.
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    • [Raderad användare] sa...
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    • 28 apr 2010, 21:00
    "A secondary motive for the outside manifestation of the anti-cosmic tradition is to counteract the essenceless and materialistic filth that is spread in the name of Satan and Satanism. By presenting a spiritual yet harshly antinomian form of Gnostic Luciferianism we hope to contribute to the establishment of visible alternatives to the vulgarism preached by atheistic con men".

    This is taken directly from their website.

    • jorrizza sa...
    • Användare
    • 28 apr 2010, 21:27
    Well yes, in their scribblings they claim to use the ancient Platonic demiurge philosophy as a basis of their model. They basically claim that a non-prefect deity (who might have received it's position through a perfect deity) has created order, causality, the universe and so on. Somehow this isn't what it should be, because chaos is the desired situation. Lucifer's your guy if you want chaos, apparently.

    If that's literally what they believe, then there's no left hand path to speak of. Purely theistic Satanism isn't my cup of tea, really. Unless this obstruction of order by chaos is a symbolic method to gain more control over one self of course. Then it can be interpreted in such a way that it might fit within the left hand path. That's the option my $0.02 referred to.

    The awesome link of flaming death, epic destruction and pancakes.
    Warning, clicking this link might cause defects like enlightenment, godlessness and knowledge
  • Hm, my knowledge of left hand path organisations ends with Typhonian O.T.O. and Dragon Rouge.

    I can’t think of any greater happiness than to be with you all the time, without interruption, endlessly, even though I feel that here in this world there’s no undisturbed place for our love, neither in the village nor anywhere else; and I dream of a grave, deep and narrow, where we could clasp each other in our arms as with clamps, and I would hide my face in you and you would hide your face in me, and nobody would ever see us any more.
  • The left hand path doesn't really play well with theism, now I come to think of it.
    Petersen makes a distiction between Rational Satanism and Esoteric Satanism which probably might be something you are looking for.

    Gavin Baddeley also makes the distinction between worship and worship AND belief.

    I get the impression that Left Hand Pathers still seem to transform Satan into a metaphor, unawaringly so maybe.

    • [Raderad användare] sa...
    • Användare
    • 29 apr 2010, 16:00
    jorrizza said:
    Well yes, in their scribblings they claim to use the ancient Platonic demiurge philosophy as a basis of their model. They basically claim that a non-prefect deity (who might have received it's position through a perfect deity) has created order, causality, the universe and so on. Somehow this isn't what it should be, because chaos is the desired situation. Lucifer's your guy if you want chaos, apparently.



    Well, I think it says plain and clear in their description that they are against laveyan satanism. I don't see how anything there could be treated as "symbolic".

  • TheEdgecrusher said:
    jorrizza said:
    Well yes, in their scribblings they claim to use the ancient Platonic demiurge philosophy as a basis of their model. They basically claim that a non-prefect deity (who might have received it's position through a perfect deity) has created order, causality, the universe and so on. Somehow this isn't what it should be, because chaos is the desired situation. Lucifer's your guy if you want chaos, apparently.



    Well, I think it says plain and clear in their description that they are against laveyan satanism. I don't see how anything there could be treated as "symbolic".


    Well, the early black metal scene also said they opposed LaVeyan Satanism... and yet you can interpret their Satanism as metaphorical or symbolic. Or at least I and Gry Mörk did.

    • jorrizza sa...
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    • 30 apr 2010, 14:19
    LeaTelamon said:
    Well, the early black metal scene also said they opposed LaVeyan Satanism... and yet you can interpret their Satanism as metaphorical or symbolic. Or at least I and Gry Mörk did.
    I could be misinformed, but to my knowledge they were against the institution, not so much the philosophy. LaVey has made a small fortune during the hay days. People giving the church money opposes the teachings somewhat.

    LeaTelamon said:
    I get the impression that Left Hand Pathers still seem to transform Satan into a metaphor, unawaringly so maybe.
    They should. There's no room for a physical deity in pure hedonism, unless you can make it do your bidding. And even then, it shouldn't be called a deity anyway. The only place deities have within the left hand path is symbolic, as a tool of projection if you wish.

    The awesome link of flaming death, epic destruction and pancakes.
    Warning, clicking this link might cause defects like enlightenment, godlessness and knowledge
    • jorrizza sa...
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    • 30 apr 2010, 14:31
    TheEdgecrusher said:
    Well, I think it says plain and clear in their description that they are against laveyan satanism. I don't see how anything there could be treated as "symbolic".
    Oh no, their adversity towards LaVey isn't symbolic. It is quite clear indeed. But that doesn't mean they can't construct a belief system in which deities are symbolic.

    The awesome link of flaming death, epic destruction and pancakes.
    Warning, clicking this link might cause defects like enlightenment, godlessness and knowledge
  • I could be misinformed, but to my knowledge they were against the institution, not so much the philosophy. LaVey has made a small fortune during the hay days. People giving the church money opposes the teachings somewhat.

    Pretty much both. They saw LaVey as a hypocrite and idiot because he called that "Satanism", while LaVey seemed to think of them as savage brutes.

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