Do You Beleive? haha no really?

 
  • Do You Beleive? haha no really?

    here's a question for ya,

    with regards to the Bible, what do you actually beleive, how much do you beleive and take for the "God's honest truth?" if you'll excuse the pun haha,

    Is Genesis a load of made up gobeldy gook?

    Is the whole book word for word to be taken literaly?

    Is it a mix of fact and generaly morals to better humanity?

    does B.I.B.L.E. to you stand for Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth?

    or is it all just a load of cobblers?

    I'd be interested in knowing the groups views and if there are any die hard devouts amongst you? :D

    Thanks

    jack000lad

    Smile, it suits you ;-D
    • tehee10 sa...
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    • 14 jan 2010, 23:05
    I'll keep it simple...I live my life strictly by the Bible unde the New Testament which is our law today and I use the old testament as an example to better myself...Want to test my devoutness? Ask me a question about anything... ANYTHING!!!! :) God Bless!

    Carlton L. Crasher..."His WIsdom Is Greater than Ours"
    http://www.personalitypage.com/INFJ.html
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  • Re: Do You Beleive? haha no really?

    jack000lad said:
    with regards to the Bible, what do you actually beleive, how much do you beleive and take for the "God's honest truth?" if you'll excuse the pun haha,
    Lol, okay, I believe that the Word of God cannot err. How's that?

    Is the whole book word for word to be taken literaly?It depends. Do you prefer Barnabas the Apostle, Augustine of Hippo or Basil of Caesarea? I say that I like all of them when it comes to Genesis. Not that there aren't more Saints that have spoken about Genesis though. I don't believe that it should be taken totally literally, but the part about Adam and Even is a fundamental doctrine. But I believe in evolution as well, it's all in the book.

    Is it a mix of fact and generaly morals to better humanity?No, it's not even about morality; it transcends morality.

    does B.I.B.L.E. to you stand for Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth?Nope, it's "Be Idle [and] Be Low, Esse!". It's about low-riders who don't work. (Sorry, I've been playing San Andreas lately.)
    Well, not only before leaving, but also as long as you are living on Earth. It's about getting closer to God. But I'll rephrase this to the Word of God in general, not just the Bible.

    I've changed my opinion about everything. This post is old and my new views are way cooler. Can't wait to change them again.
    • tehee10 sa...
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    • 15 jan 2010, 18:55
    Is the whole book word for word to be taken literaly?

    Well, in sarcastic way...

    SURE!!!!!! Then you can believe in all kinds of stuff like monsters and Jesus ridin white horsies, and all the stuff in Revelation...and after you get done reading Revelation, you can pee your pants when you have nightmares during your sleep... XD

    Carlton L. Crasher..."His WIsdom Is Greater than Ours"
    http://www.personalitypage.com/INFJ.html
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  • OR THAT TWO-EDGED SWORD THAT JESUS THREW UP!

    I've changed my opinion about everything. This post is old and my new views are way cooler. Can't wait to change them again.
  • haha ok (nice touch on the San Andreas haha)

    ok Teehee, i'm not going to test your devoutedness haha i beleive you, but my question is if you beleive in the new testement and live your life based on that yet you don't seem all that gone by Revelations?

    and also i'm confused because if the Word of God cannot err then how can you in the same post say that you dont believe the Bible should be taken totally literally ??? surely the Bible is the "word of God" and therfore "cannot err"???

    after all at Mass do they not say after a Gospel reading "This is the word of the Lord thanks be to God"? (which in itself always made me laugh as the Gospels were written by men not God, and were usually letters from one person to another or to a group of people hence not quite the word of the "Lord") they even say this in Mass e.g. Letter from St. Paul to the Corrinthians - see not the word of God, but a letter from Paul to his mates, you get the idea ;D

    Smile, it suits you ;-D
    • tehee10 sa...
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    • 17 jan 2010, 20:06
    You are right, I’m not all ‘conflustered’ about Revelation for I don’t see it as a revelation for today’s events…I firmly believe that it was written for the first/second century Christians of the time who were being persecuted. In Rev. 1:10-11 (NKJV) – “I(John the Apostle) was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet saying, “Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodecia” that’s not the only reason though…So from the get-go it is written for the seven churches of Asia…In earlier times such as Daniel, he was told to seal up his visions and 600 years later they were fulfilled by Christ…John was told not to seal up the prophecy and the things therein are for a short time to come…It’s 2000 years later, if it hasn’t been fulfilled yet, Idk what to think...Thats my very simple version to why I don’t get all confused when I read Revelation….In all seriousness, with Revelation if you happen to believe that its for our time, then we could place any current event or one from the darkages/whenever and make it fit…our we can place it in the “things which will shortly come to pass” category, and apply it to Christians who needed comfort throughout the persecution…When I say, its not to be taken literally, that doesn’t mean its wrong…it simply means its of symbols…and I don’t go to mass cus I’m not Catholic…so, I’m not sure about that lol….They were all written by a man, but many were Apostles or those who had connections to them...therefore, they might use improper grammar, but through the help of the Holy Spirit and (God's inspiration)...their teachings will be fine...and since they all concur with each other...I don't see any doctrinal errors...

    Carlton L. Crasher..."His WIsdom Is Greater than Ours"
    http://www.personalitypage.com/INFJ.html
    www.personalitypage.com/INFJ_rel.html

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  • ok, you're not Catholic, but what denomination are you?

    secondly you can't really apply revelations to any past catastrophic event because the whole idea of revelations is thats it, THE END, and we all get judged together, all those who have already died and all those who are still alive will be judged and either sent to heaven or hell or whatever, but that hasn't happened yet so surely that would mean Revelations definatly can't be applied to history as we know it?

    ok so if the bible is "of symbols" then it's open to an infinate number of interpritations, as everyone could decipher it differently, which then goes to say that the Bible means someting different to everyone who reads it and therefore God's word would be understood in an infinate number of ways, which is surely not what God would want?

    but the most interesting thing here is that you said and since they all concur with each other...I don't see any doctrinal errors... well the thing is the Bible as we all know is not a historical document, and the books, gospels, and stories that wen't into the Bible that we know and read today were all painstakingly selected and argued over for a very long time, and out of hundereds of various different versions of stories and different gospels, a selection was made by a Roman council, the rest were disposed of and we were left with a selection of stories, letters and accounts that had been passed down by word of mouth for years and years untill various formats were circulating some were written and out of those only a handful were ultimately selected by Romans to place in the Bible.

    the fact that they all "concur" with each other is quite simple, it's not that it must have happened as all gospels concur, its that the Romans selected the history that best suited their propoganda, public interest and what would best benefit the Roman Empire that was adapting and incorporating this new religion. that is why your gospels concur, because they were edited to.

    Honestly, the Romans were in charge of the greatest Empire of the time, they were not foolish, they were clever, they were resourceful and adaptable and thats what made them great, Catholocism was a way to control the crowds, please the people, adapt and continue with control. The Bible is a selection of stories selected to apease and control an Empire long gone.

    Smile, it suits you ;-D
    • tehee10 sa...
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    • 19 jan 2010, 02:40
    This isn't my religious website, but it is one where my beliefs concur...I attend "church of Christ" and here are our beliefs, though I don't know who made this page...

    http://www.bible.ca/seek-about.htm

    secondly you can't really apply revelations to any past catastrophic event because the whole idea of revelations is thats it, THE END, and we all get judged together, all those who have already died and all those who are still alive will be judged and either sent to heaven or hell or whatever, but that hasn't happened yet so surely that would mean Revelation definatly can't be applied to history as we know it?

    Show me proof of this or at least where you think this is the point of revelation and i'll talk further...This is simply your opinion with no factual basis shown.

    ok so if the bible is "of symbols" then it's open to an infinate number of interpritations, as everyone could decipher it differently, which then goes to say that the Bible means someting different to everyone who reads it and therefore God's word would be understood in an infinate number of ways, which is surely not what God would want?

    "Revelation is of symbols", not the entire Bible...Actually, I've never read this, but here's the prologue in my Bible to Revelation...

    First of all realize...Who did John write the book of Revelation too? The seven churches of Asia...

    Here's what my Bible says...As outside persecution against Christians increased, the first-century church also faced internal problems. They struggled with suffering, spiritual warfare, heretical doctrine and practice, and spiritual apathy. Christ had promised to return--but when? And how? And what would He do about the problems facing the church when He did come back?
    Confronted with these circumstances, the original readers of Revelation needed to be both encouraged and exhorted. On the one hand, Revelation was intended to be a promise of divine protection from God's judgement on the world. On the other hand, those who read the book were to take it to heart, and obey, worshipfully standing for the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus, as the Apostle John had. In recording the Revelation of Jesus Christ, John wanted to reassure his readers that Jesus Christ controls the course and climax of history. Gods overriding purpose in all of history is the establishment of the promised messianic kingdom. Associated with this ultimate divine objective is the oppurtunity for believers to persever by faith in a life of obedience. The prospect for these overcomers or victors is the destiny of reigning with Christ as coheirs in his Kingdom...

    ...As for the date of its writing, clearly Revelation emerged during a time when Christians were suffering persecution. The dates most widely suggested are an early one before A.d. 70, and a later one around A.D. 95...

    The strength of the late sixties date rests on the popular myth of that period that the deranged emperor Nero would be revived. This myth parallels much of the imagery of ch. 13. Reference to the "temple of God" and "the altar" Rev.11:1 I Jerusalem, which were both destroyed in A.D> 70, also supports the earlier dating. But the later date, near the end of Domitian's reign of emperor (A.D.81-96), is more likely. The picture of suffering seen in Revelation seems closer to what is known of the persecution under Domitian. There is also the statement of Irenaeus, in about A.D.185, that John wrote Revelation "at the close of Domitian's reign." This would be around A.D. 95

    Some history...Reliable hisotical sources dating from the second century A.D. place the apostle John in Ephesus and ministering throughout th eprovicnce of Asia from about 70 to 100 A.d.. It is likely that 1st, 2nd, and 3rd John were written by the apostle to Christians around 80-100ad. During the latter part of this period, the emperor Domitian intensified his persecution of Christians. John was undoubteldly placed on the island of Patmos because of Christian testimony. He was releasted after eighteen months by Emepror Nerva(96-98ad)

    Theology- The book itself "The Revelation of Jesus Christ"...Christ is pictured as the glorified Son of Man, the Lion of Juday, the wroth Lamb, etc...The book details Christ's directions to the churches (chs.2&3) and describes "the wrath of the Lamb" 6:16, His judgements on the sinful world prior to His Second Coming...The death burial and resurrection are the historfical backdrop for His gracious offer of redemption from sin and eternal life...


    Now that I've read as I typed, you can read it too...

    Carlton L. Crasher..."His WIsdom Is Greater than Ours"
    http://www.personalitypage.com/INFJ.html
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  • ok, as a Roman Catholic what we beleive is as stated above, Jesus will "judge the living and the dead" together and that his kingdom will have no end and to look forth at the light of the world to come amen, i cant quite give you proof of this, as it's what is said at mass here every day, not out of the bible but out of the preists mouth, thats what i'm getting at with this forum, pointing out differences and beleifs within the group, so you're denomination (or not? according to the website you sited) does not beleive that the end of the world will come when Jesus comes again and judges everyone together?

    This is what i have been tought at church and school since i can remember, that the end of the world involves Everyone, living and dead all getting judged, the world ends and you either go up or down. therfore from a Catholic point of view Revelations can't have happened yet simply because were still here. because i think i'd know if i was standing amongst the living and the dead in a line to be judged by Jesus? haha

    so i take it then that you don't follow this in your... church?

    Out of iterest actually do the followers of the church you attend think that the Catholic church as a denomination or institution is a bad or evil or terrible thing?


    Please correct me if i'm wrong, i probably am so don't worry haha, but does this mean your church emerged recently, picked up the bible and basically said "I don't like the way my church is run, i beleive the new testement is what should be followed" and along came the church you now attend?

    Confronted with these circumstances, the original readers of Revelation needed to be both encouraged and exhorted.

    because in that case my argument still stands does it not? that you follow a book selected and edited by the Roman Empire? Because even the original readers of Revelations were reading the Roman released version no? AH no sorry, i got that bit wrong (i told you ity would happen!!! haha)

    I've just gone back up and read that this was happening at a time that the Christians were being persecuted, so does your religion read a different version of the bible? an older version than the one found in a catholic church? or if you were to go and buy a bible would you just get "a bible"? in which case if you don't have a specific bible then yes my argument still stands, haha this is probably terribly confusing, i know, i'm getting my head around it myself now haha

    Smile, it suits you ;-D
    • tehee10 sa...
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    • 19 jan 2010, 22:09
    Yes, we believe the dead & alive will be judged together...Where did you think we wouldn't?

    We believe the Catholic church is heavily misguiding people...I'll only list one thing..if you want to discuss this more, lets go to emails or pm's...k? Jesus estabished no such prieshood for the Catholic church...Jesus Christ is our high priest and our intercessor for everything...may I suggest reading your Bible, or do they really tell you can't understand it? As to its beginnings...I don't know... I really don't "Members of the church of Christ do not conceive of themselves as a new church started near the beginning of the 19th century. Rather, the whole movement is designed to reproduce in contemporary times the church originally established on Pentecost, A.D. 30. The strength of the appeal lies in the restoration of Christ's original church."
    as to my Bible, its a standard NKJV....All of that I've ever read says they were being persecuted at the time?...thats information is just from the newer one I have...What point does the Catholic church have to do with the Bible? and I don't really understand what you are getting at either...so maybe some clarification...

    I've just gone back up and read that this was happening at a time that the Christians were being persecuted, so does your religion read a different version of the bible? an older version than the one found in a catholic church? or if you were to go and buy a bible would you just get "a bible"? in which case if you don't have a specific bible then yes my argument still stands, haha this is probably terribly confusing, i know, i'm getting my head around it myself now haha

    like i said, what does the Catholic church have to do with the Bible?...

    Carlton L. Crasher..."His WIsdom Is Greater than Ours"
    http://www.personalitypage.com/INFJ.html
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    • sotdan sa...
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    • 20 jan 2010, 00:52
    like i said, what does the Catholic church have to do with the Bible?...


    I think his point is that Catholics are reading the same Bible you are reading.

  • YES Sotdan! thanks haha couldn't have put it better myself (obviously haha), my point is if in your church you read the same bible as the Catholic church which it seems you do, then how can you possibly say that your church strives to rule itself by the way the religion was run back in AD30? that makes no sence at all, as the Bible you read is a document written centuries later, altered by time and leaders to suit their own political needs at the time. (and i'll openly admit it was altered by Romans and the Catholic church to follow)

    Yes, we believe the dead & alive will be judged together...Where did you think we wouldn't?

    this is where

    It’s 2000 years later, if it hasn’t been fulfilled yet, Idk what to think...

    that would mean in my mind that you seem to think that Revelations had already been fulfilled?

    haha also i'd agree with you on the Catholic's being a heavily misguided people, but then going to any religious celebration of any faith i've found the whole thing quite a brainwashing process if you sit back and look at it from an outside point of view. Also the fact that as i have said a few times the bible was a book edited and selected by the most powerfull empire and richest organizations of the time just goes to show how little it can be trusted for historical fact. yet having been brought up as a Catholic i have to admit that for some people at least faith is a good thing, wether there is something or someone at the other end of it or not, faith itself can have an amazingly posotive effect on people and the morals the bible tries to potray are beneficial for people to learn for society to be peaceful, but then you could learn these morals equally well from many fairy tales, kids stories and some cartoons even.

    haha and the Catholic church has ALOT to do with the bible, it's kind of the focal point, the thing that the Catholic church preaches from.

    how big is catholocism in America anyway? I always had the impression that it was a minor player compared to all the other spin off denominations? could be wrong, i don't know thats why i'm asking haha

    Smile, it suits you ;-D
    • tehee10 sa...
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    • 20 jan 2010, 23:47
    Is there proof that it was actually altered...and what has been altered? In high school we have foreign exchange students and the German ones say that our history of Hitler was very negative, there's is somewhat different...Since you say its been edited and everthing else, why didn't they say someone else killed Jesus?...surely they wouldn't want that blood on their hands...and our Bible comes from the Romans only?...To date, there are over 4000 ancient Greek manuscripts containing the New Testament...If you go and look at these manuscripts, you can still reconstruct the new testament as we have it in our Bible's today...If you don't think we have an accurate Bible according to original texts, I don't understand why you believe in any religion at all...after all, do not the Catholics still get their authority from the Bible just like other religions? Not tryin to be nasty, just curious =)

    As to not already come yet...I realize that Christ hasn't come back to earth yet, of course that has not occured...but the prophecy of Christ returning is also in many other books of the New Testament as well...As to why Revelation was written, that part has already come to pass and though the book as a whole is still great for the average christian BECAUSE Christ has not returned yet, and we still have a life to live through...The first century christians had it tough....Revelation was designed to help them see the end and the advantages of keeping their faith...(heaven) for the winner and hell for the wicked...

    haha and the Catholic church has ALOT to do with the bible, it's kind of the focal point, the thing that the Catholic church preaches from..
    On TV, and from Catholic friends, they tell me all that is read is from a prayer book...and like I said, thats all they do on the Catholic Channel is repeat after priest so & so , and mother (nun) so and so..."alright boys and girls, for the 390 millionth time this year 'our father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name"

    how big is catholicism? remember that one of the reasons that America was created was for religious freedom...

    just for background info, here is an excerpt from a website titled "Why they came to America"

    In the latter half of the 16th century, during the reign of Elizabeth I, there was a sentiment among many Englishmen that reform had not gone far enough. These people, primarily members of the middle and lower classes, wanted to "purify" the Church of England by doing away with all vestiges of Catholicism and returning to a simple and pure form of worship. Furthermore, they wanted to eliminate the clerical hierarchy as God's appointed representatives on earth with the privilege of interpreting the word of God.

    The Puritan concept of worship included no dogma, no ceremony, no statuary and no formal Book of Prayer. It disdained the vestments of the clergy and their ritualistic services, and completely rejected the use of symbolism in the form of Mass, Communion, Baptism, the Enthronement of Bishops, and the Solemnization of Marriages.

    The Puritans objected to being compelled to support the Church through tithes, levies, and taxes. They preferred to worship solemnly in humble surroundings and in direct communication with God. They resented the Church's claim to infallibility and both the Church and state's rejection of the right of any man to worship in accordance with his own conscience.

    These precepts put the Puritans on a collision course with the King and government. The Anglican, or Established, Church of England had the advantage of forming a vast network of communication that reached into every corner and every home of the country. Through the Church ran the authority of the law, the fear of the hereafter and the knowledge that the priests employed by it would take note of any "nonconformity" on the part of the people.

    Attendance at church services was compulsory and ensured that the surveillance was total. The parish rolls prevented the citizens from dispersing and so evading taxes, military service and their "duty" to their masters. For those who failed to conform, the penalties were severe.

    As the Puritan movement grew stronger in numbers and determination, so to did the opposition and repression of the King, the government and the Church. Under the Stuart Kings, James I and Charles I, the Puritans despaired of making any real change in the Church and feared for their freedom and their lives if they continued in their non-conformity. As religious tensions in England grew, the New World was seen as a place of refuge where dissenters could worship as they pleased.

    Religious differences and the resulting political difficulties were not, however, the sole reason for emigration to America and may, in fact, have been a minor reason. In the early 17th century, the economic and social lives of Englishmen were undergoing dramatic changes. England's economy had for centuries been based on agriculture. Ownership of land was not only a road to wealth, but was the basis of one's social and political position. The land hunger of both the gentry (land owners) and the tenant farmers could not be satisfied on a small island governed by those in favor of maintaining feudal rights. The gentry wanted more land while tenant farmers wanted to own the land they worked and to be free of the feudal restraints that still bound them.



    If you really are interested, if you can try to get past what so many have taught (revelation is for the future, as in all of the monsters, sign of devil, 666 stuff, here is an explanation to it all by using the Bible...which is called Parallelism btw..

    http://www.scripturessay.com/printpage.php?id=677


    The last poll I saw was Protestantism 60%, Catholicism 20-25%, and etc....

    Carlton L. Crasher..."His WIsdom Is Greater than Ours"
    http://www.personalitypage.com/INFJ.html
    www.personalitypage.com/INFJ_rel.html

    Really Lengthy Discussions please use tehee10@gmail.com instead of pm's
  • Re: Do You Beleive? haha no really?

    Obviously the answer is No, but the following questions make the subject more complex than that, because I do have beliefs regarding the Bible, just not IN the Bible.

    And since I'm part of the group, my answer is just as valid. : )

    jack000lad said:
    Is Genesis a load of made up gobeldy gook?
    Is the whole book word for word to be taken literaly?


    These two go together.

    No, Genesis is not a load of made up gobbeldy-gook. It is a compilation of stories--mythology from a specific people at a specific time in history. The contents of Genesis tell us a lot about the people who wrote it, the region in which they lived, and the surrounding cultural influences. Speaking from an anthropological perspective, it is a very important book--not because it holds truths of the Universe, but because it is a very well-preserved cultural artifact. It stands alongside Gilgamesh, Egyptian literature, the Rubiyyat of Omar Khayyim, and key writings of other cultures that construct our history as a community and the roots of our culture today.

    Also, artifacts of language as a result of the Bible's hodge-podge authorship and formation have made it a very fruitful topic for linguists.

    Much of the "wisdom" of Genesis (and the rest of the Torah by extension) is still relevant in the fact that there ARE universal human problems and themes--oppression, loss, desire, love, and so on -- that humans of all ages can relate to. It is an important piece of literature regardless of beliefs. THE most important? Probably not. But important? Yes.

    This leads to the second point. The fact that the Bible is a result of multiple authors, influenced by local cultures and customs, and subject to the mores of its time means that it should not be taken 100% literally, and the parts that should be taken literally should always be held at arms distance and verified by archeological evidence.

    How do you know the difference, though? Value judgments (it is immoral to...) and legends (Creation, Flood, Exodus story, Samson, etc.) should be kept in context of stories and metaphor. Frequently, they parallel themes of other local stories (such as the Flood), so any grain of truth in the story, such as "there was a flood in 6000 BCE in the Valley of Where-ever and it was incredibly devastating", have become lost in the STORYTELLING.

    What should we consider more literally? Descriptions of cultural practice, descriptions of events. We should believe that a great number of the laws lined up in Leviticus and Deuteronomy were followed to the letter. We should believe that the Hebrew army went to war believing that they were God's Chosen fighting for a Promised Land as described in Numbers. We can trust that the greater amount of Kings described were actually Kings in their nation. We should not take all the figures and descriptions for granted, but we can trust that a portion of the facts are true, and believe it is an accurate account of events when archeologists (sometimes) confirm pieces of the information.

    I differ from the Christians in my answer by taking this a step further. What does this information mean, how do we use it? Do we allow the blend of truth and legend to inform our lives, and is it even meaningful? The fact that value judgments leading to law is a product of the time period means that we cannot use the judgments formed to inform us today. Our time period is different. We have different mores and values. While some remained the same, the situation has changed enough to render the old solutions incomplete. Any attempt to apply Old Testament values to the modern day is disastrous -- to either the original values or the application.

    We also cannot trust that just because the authors were able to accurately transcribe their cultural practices and military campaigns - truth - that they then have greater truths about the universe, God, science, and so on. All the true, literal bits of the Bible mean is that someone wrote down what was going on or who was in power--no different than the Pyramids of Egypt or the stelae of Mesopotamia.

    So in conclusion: Only take literally the verifiable facts or cultural statements AS information about the culture that wrote the book. Legends are not truths about the Universe, and statements of value are thousands of years outdated.

    Is it a mix of fact and generaly morals to better humanity?

    Already covered the fact.

    But I believe that the morals in the book were believed to be for the betterment of humanity. However, I personally disagree that they better anything other than their own selfish ends.

    On the good bits (Golden Rule, Honor your Mother and Father, etc) : Similar conclusions have been reached by alienated cultures globally, and by secular or pagan philosophers, so there is no reason to believe that the Bible is unique, special, or even particularly powerful in the formation of "positive" morality.

    On the bad bits (Eye for an Eye, kill / fight people who don't believe like you do, "I am a Jealous God", bears mauling kids for name calling, women must be subservient, women are "unclean" on their period (not just literally), the eternal fight for the Promised Land, convert the world, "I bring not peace but a sword", homosexuality is immoral, etc etc etc)): First of all, it seems obvious that I consider the bad parts to far outnumber and outweigh the good, but I do not believe that the bad bits are unique or special either. Groups have found other reasons and other foundations for moral filth in politics, other religions, and other arenas altogether, so its not like I'm going to specifically call out the Bible as pure corruption and "evil". I will say, however, that it is not a good moral source, and has never bettered humanity morally, with the only possible exception of well-meaning missionary workers bringing aid to disaster victims... but secular groups and other religions can and have done that too.

    The fault I find in the Bible, ultimately, isn't so much that it has faults, as would be expected from a multi-authored work written thousands of years ago, its the fact that it, and the faiths based on it, does absolutely nothing to fix them. If you want to use the Bible as a moral source, your only option is to cherry pick around the nasty bits, or include them and commit your own atrocities. You're not supposed to look outside for answers on moral problems (and Saints don't count as "outside" in this case, Urocyon), in fact, any attempt at looking outside is met with resistance. You can't correct the problems in the outdated moral code, write out the slavery, make it less misogynistic, and so on, because you can't CHANGE anything. The Bible is suspended in history, and the people who rely strictly on it suspend themselves out of touch with their own time, though they rarely see it, or find themselves wrapped in a web of apologetics.

    does B.I.B.L.E. to you stand for Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth?
    or is it all just a load of cobblers?


    I don't believe in an afterlife, so no. :P

    And before someone whips out Pascal's Wager; if I am wrong (a possibility I do consider), the chances of the "real" afterlife being a Christian one is very, very slim. Slim enough that if it were true, I would be genuinely surprised to find myself in front of the Biblical God being sorted into the goats on his left hand.


    I won't go too much into other people's discussion but I will mention:
    how big is catholocism in America anyway? I always had the impression that it was a minor player compared to all the other spin off denominations? could be wrong, i don't know thats why i'm asking haha

    I grew up Catholic in America so I know a bit about this. First, it depends on where you live. There are some heavily Catholic areas, but the large majority of the country is Protestant of one denomination or another. Intersting fun fact: Catholic areas and traditional Irish immigrant areas have a positive correlation. I've got some Irish in me, some Italian, so there's my Catholic, but my hometown was traditionally heavily German farming, with a certain percentage of Irish also, so while I was still a "minority" religious wise (the 60-20% figure stands), I was in a liberal enough area that no one cared... as long as you were Christian of some stripe. Other areas, Catholics can have a very hard time, but these days most people just care that you believe in a God, but preferably the Christian one.

    Where people DO care about Catholics though, is in politics. The last thing the "American people" want are Catholics in power, because they don't want the Vatican to have an influence here, it would go against our sensibilities of Freedom of Religion. The irony is that no one cares about having Protestants of certain denominations in power, even though the leaders of those denominations then have influence... Ted Haggard had a hotline to President Bush before he was busted for gay affairs and drugs. Mmm going a little off topic... XD


    But anyway, hopefully that was helpful, and I'm open for all kinds of questions. :)

    There's no problem a few frag grenades can't fix.

    Cookies for Godlessness
    My Twin in life, love, mind, and music: ISoS
    The snake that cannot shed its skin perishes. So do the spirits who are prevented from changing their opinions; they cease to be spirit. -Nietzsche
  • God Anath i missed you ;D haha how are you doing? leader of the ACP now i see!!! nice one!!!

    firstly thanks to both of you with the Catholocism in America thing, because over here i'll be honest the "stereotypical" view of American releigious beleif is that you either don't beleive in Jesus or you "BELEIVE BROTHERS AND SISTERS!!!" but in all cases it seems the majority of Americans that do have faith are a spin off protestant, but not catholic. haha yeah it doesn't suprise me either that the majority of catholics are situated around Irish settelments (their trying to take over the world on the quiet!!! and it's working note how many people say they've Irish backgrounds!!! haha, but shhhh the empire of the spuds isn't ready yet so don't tell anyone hahaha)

    If you don't think we have an accurate Bible according to original texts, I don't understand why you believe in any religion at all...after all, do not the Catholics still get their authority from the Bible just like other religions? Not tryin to be nasty, just curious =)

    haha you misunderstand me here, i was brought up a Catholic, i have all the caromonial atributes (Christening, Communion, Confirmation) done to, but that doesn't mean i believe in any religion at all. In fact i find Mass here quite comical (on the rare occasion and i do mean "Occasion" that i go) i know the words to mass practically off by heart, but it is a ceremony of outdated brainwashing, the majority of people here go so they are "seen" to be going and it's quite rediculous, plus the fact that mass attendance is dwindeling, fewer of the younger generation than ever are attending and lets be honest, why would you? very few i imagine still get out of Mass what people used to. i feel personaly that the catholic church is in need of a radical reform and mass itself needs to be shaken up, and made more appealing to this generation and age (obviously in small steps not to scare the oldies into an early grave haha).

    no i personaly would say i am Catholic just to confuse the Irish who seem to think all English people are Protestant, but in reality i am a freelance, quite a confused soul really, but at the same time i look that way but i am quite happy with my semi-religious life.

    On TV, and from Catholic friends, they tell me all that is read is from a prayer book...and like I said, thats all they do on the Catholic Channel is repeat after priest so & so , and mother (nun) so and so..."alright boys and girls, for the 390 millionth time this year 'our father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name"

    haha yeah prayer books aren't seen that often over here any more, i have one but like you get them as presents for your holy communion and take them with you that day but thats about it (America seems alot more extreme on most things, religion being a big one there) but yes this is why i disslike the catholic mass, its so repetative and pure and simple boring.

    ok i'll be honest i'm not entirely sure where you were going with regards to how protestants came to America, because the English were forever changing their minds back then as to wether they were a catholic or protestant country, it all depended on where the money was and the religion of the moarch in power at the time, everyone was getting a hard time and the monarchy were a pretty mad and unpredictable bunch in those days haha,

    And since I'm part of the group, my answer is just as valid. : )

    ok Anath this slightly worried me? in my head of course your answer is valid, but i get the impression it hasn't been before in this group?

    ah ha so you don't beleive in an after life? i think i've asked this before? so do you beleive we die go into the ground and get re absorbed and we become part of the world? i've asked this question quite a few times now to quite a few people so i think i may have replies mixed up in my head haha?

    ok i didn't know that about America, with the Catholocism and Christianity and polotics, see again this is yet another reason why i'm so put off visiting America, it seems so stuborn and blown out of proportion (i know i know thats stereotyping i know, but you have to realise the way in which America is portrayed in Europe, a BIG Powerful, excentric, stubborn country obsessed with reality TV, God, Guns, money, and will always have cheese with that, now have a nice day) sorry i know that was harsh but you must realise that on our side of the pond this is what we see on your own TV shows and quite sadly these eccentricities are ebbing their way into our own culture, however i am certain that this is not the case in all incidences of course! this is a culture difference, similar to that of when i was in Spain and a spanish man walked right into me, i appologised yet he ignored me and carried on, and this happened a few times, i considered these continentals quite rude until my uncle (and later a freind from Germany) said to me that here "Sorry" is used for times when you are actually repenting something, when you trully are sorry, but accidently bumping into someone does not require this word, its a mistake that happens daily and is unessecary to acknowledge. funny eh, but were all different.

    ok so i've gone off topic a bit but hey, so heres a question i have always wanted to ask someone like you TeeHee, do you not think, that perhaps instead of devoting your time to prayer and going to religious gatherings, your time would be more appreciated and more fullfilling actually doing what some would call "God's Work" what others would call "voluntary work" and what i call my Job, helping those in need?

    Smile, it suits you ;-D
    • tehee10 sa...
    • Användare
    • 21 jan 2010, 22:05
    ok so i've gone off topic a bit but hey, so heres a question i have always wanted to ask someone like you TeeHee, do you not think, that perhaps instead of devoting your time to prayer and going to religious gatherings, your time would be more appreciated and more fullfilling actually doing what some would call "God's Work" what others would call "voluntary work" and what i call my Job, helping those in need?

    Well, yes and no since you ask...We don't really have lots of religious gatherings per say...all we have is our sunday worship service and biblestudy in the evening, and a wednesday night bible study,....so in a way...it really consumes little time to be doing God's work...and praying is the same as well, I don't take an hour to pray, I simply pray for the important things on my mind....a couple minutes at the most.

    But yes, I find it really great to be doing God's work, as to worship and what not, the fact I believe in God and wish to do his will means I also wish to pay tribute/worship to him...So while that takes little time out of a week, the rest can be spent doing God's work on my free time. Personally, I'm going into law enforcement and I hope that instead of being a tyrant, I wish to help those who have their lives messed up and who need to realize they're ruining their one lifetime...why go through a troublesome life and dealing with the law, when you can clean yourself up and work for the common good of society... =)

    Carlton L. Crasher..."His WIsdom Is Greater than Ours"
    http://www.personalitypage.com/INFJ.html
    www.personalitypage.com/INFJ_rel.html

    Really Lengthy Discussions please use tehee10@gmail.com instead of pm's
  • Fair enough, your religion still takes up more time than the average Catholic though, and i don't know if thats a good or a bad thing?

    Non-beleivers, Athiests, Agnostics, and those from other religions, would you say these people are miss-guided, follow a different path to the same ultimate end, or by chance because they were born into a different family and environment they were just tought differently, or what?

    And then if someone doesn't follow your religion (and this goes for anyone who has any religious beleife in anything from God, to Allah, Jedi's to swiss cheese) do you think that when they die they go the hell even if they led a good life?

    Smile, it suits you ;-D
    • tehee10 sa...
    • Användare
    • 24 jan 2010, 22:49
    Fair enough, your religion still takes up more time than the average Catholic though, and i don't know if thats a good or a bad thing?

    Well, well, as to church services, we just go by the New Testament...(sing, pray, preach, remember Lord's death (communion), etc...So as to whether or not Its a good or bad thing...I guess you have to decide whether following the New Testament example is a good or bad thing.

    Non-beleivers, Athiests, Agnostics, and those from other religions, would you say these people are miss-guided, follow a different path to the same ultimate end, or by chance because they were born into a different family and environment they were just tought differently, or what?

    Obviously, all of us are not on the same path, at least not where we are going in life, we as Christians goal ourselves towards being righteous by the Bible, whereaas the rest of the world just does whatever I guess, seeks out other knowledge I guess? Has fun?...Idk...But as to how they become started on their path and why...that would be left to family and environmental issues...I grew up in a Christian family, therefore I'm more likely to follow the Bible, some grow up with the Bible, something bad happens, they blame it on God, and therefore they go another path...some just grow up without God, so the only values they have are based on the society around them.....With me as a Christian, the Bible shapes my life, to the rest of the world, well, obviously unless you are set on being 'who you are', the world will define you...right?

    And then if someone doesn't follow your religion (and this goes for anyone who has any religious beleife in anything from God, to Allah, Jedi's to swiss cheese) do you think that when they die they go the hell even if they led a good life?

    Who am I to judge, the Lord gave us his word through the many books right? In effect what he gave us was his law...Therefore, he is the judge of the Law, to figure who is righteous and who is not...I can formulate opinions, but here again I would be judging....As someone once reminded me of a verse in the Bible and I'll paraphrase..."Brother, look at the plank in your eye before looking at the speck in mine"...I will leave the judging up to God...With that said, I cannot put words in God's mouth as to the believers, vs. nonbelievers, vs. those in tribes of Africa....

    What I do believe though, is that those who definitely live by the Bible, WILL, find heaven...those who are faithful and have served faithfully...

    Carlton L. Crasher..."His WIsdom Is Greater than Ours"
    http://www.personalitypage.com/INFJ.html
    www.personalitypage.com/INFJ_rel.html

    Really Lengthy Discussions please use tehee10@gmail.com instead of pm's
  • jack000lad said:
    and also i'm confused because if the Word of God cannot err then how can you in the same post say that you dont believe the Bible should be taken totally literally ??? surely the Bible is the "word of God" and therfore "cannot err"???
    The Bible is not the Word of God, you said it yourself. The Bible contains the Word of God. Besides certain books which are supposed to be taken also as accounts, not only as a revelations, the rest is as follows. God reveals Himself to man. Why? Because either God wanted to (mostly BC) or because man finally repented (mostly AD). The man to whom God has revealed the truth feels probably as Paul did. Since we can barely understand the earthly, it is even harder to comprehend the Divine (John 3:21).
    Therefore, the saints do hold the truth that God has handed them, but they cannot always transfer the Divine truth to the earthly humans easily. It's our fault, we're not enlightened.
    The saints know the Word of God, but they may fail sometimes to pass it on or express themselves. Also, knowing the Word of God doesn't make you an expert in maths, grammar, biology or chemistry. You are still able to err here and the Bible is not directly the Word of God. What we claim to know as the Word of God are nothing more but the experiences of people who met God in a way.

    As St. John Chrysostom says, it is a weakness. The Bible exists because we are not pure enough to learn the truth on our own. Even if all the Bibles of the world suddenly disappear, a saint is pure enough to learn the truth and re-write everything again. But it would have been much better if we could live without the Bible...

    This is very important, since Islam has caused much problems due to their views. They believe that the Qur'an is literally the Word of Allah. From the very first letter to the very last, it is God-sent (and, yes, in Arabic). It's almost like saying that God threw the book down from Heaven (luckily, it didn't fall on anyone's head)!


    Also, why am I always talking about irrelevant stuff?! Sorry for the off-topic parts.

    I've changed my opinion about everything. This post is old and my new views are way cooler. Can't wait to change them again.
  • no no they all add to the converstations development, i find it interesting that you say how Islam caused much problems due to their views, hahaha but to be fair the Christians were doing the same thing, and then you had the crusades, the Christians didn't much like the newreligion encroaching on their turf and a holy war started. as much based on ideology as on greed and power, in fact the later took presedence, the Templars and such kept the highways free from robbers to allow rich merchants and tourists flowing through to the holy land safely and therfore profits increased. you can't look back on the Christians development from the past without seeing corruption and greed, they come part and parcell.

    Meanwhile Teehee (nice avatar by the way) i agree with you on the whole "who am i to judge" thing BUT if all those who truly beleived in the bible and followed it and did good etc etc definatly get into heaven, thats a very VERY small percentage of humans, in thw whole of history, and so all these people who are innocent, of everything, had led good lives and all, but just never either followed Christ, or never had the oppertunity to (e.g. BC) are left to go to Hell? or what? besides there probably better off, because all you will end up with in heaven are people who think and act identically and that would be as boring and miserable, in fact that would be hell. so either God is filltering through the Humans to pick out the very best beleivers for a heavenly Arian race, or else there has to be some allowence for the people who leaded good lives, just without God, but then that would upset Chreistians who would then say well why am i wasting my time with Jesus when i could just get on with life without him and still get in to heaven.

    so i feel when choosing a religion, you really need to be careful and actually put a bit of thought into it first hand. because in some cases you may be following a God who segregates the human population, and sends billions to burn in the fires of hell, personally i'm all for a god that is for everyone rather than a god thats just for his worshippers. I sit in church and i think to myself "do not worship false idols... hmm lovely big cross, a Jesus on it who could for all we know, have been looked at in Moses' time as a false idol, and not only that but to boil it all down after picking holes in Christianity's frail attempt at explaining everything, yopu miss the fundemental point, what happens to all those who don't beleive, where do they go?"

    and in a multi-cultural society that we all now live in, i have to ask myself when i die, if i go to heaven my picture of heaven certainly isn't worshipping the big man God, i wanna play frisbee with the bloke, but more importantly i want all my freinds and family their too because that 's heaven, and it wouldn't be heaven without them, so if they don't beleive in God, or if they beleive in another God and they don't get into heaven, then what's the point of being there?" no thanks

    Now Grey Fox and Tee hee you tell me, honestly, that if you get into heaven and your family and freinds have all been condemned to hell for whatever reasons, you honestly tell me that you will still be happy up there kneeling for all eternity in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. because if thats true, and you would still happily do that, then you are just hollow! you have fallen into the trap that Catholocism set centurys ago to maintain controll over its followers, a trap that now seems to have dwindeld away from Catholics and has set itself anew in spin off denominations around the world where all out devotion and love is given to the Lord even over your own family. well skrew that!

    Smile, it suits you ;-D
  • Well, corruption always existed inside every single group. You can't escape. Communism, atheism, Islam, Christianity, football teams, politicians - it's everywhere. Anyway, we do not claim that we are a Church of pure believers, but a Church of sinners who wish to heal themselves. Here's a funny thread! :D

    jack000lad said:
    and so all these people who are innocent, of everything, had led good lives and all, but just never either followed Christ, or never had the oppertunity to (e.g. BC) are left to go to Hell? or what?
    What can I say? Romans 2:9-16 concerning the righteous who never met Christ and, as for those BC who were killed by God or never had the chance to meet Him, we have Christ descending to Hades/Sheol. When He got there, He broke down the gates of Death and everyone was free to climb towards Heaven again...if he could - or else, he would remain in Hades/Sheol.

    but then that would upset Chreistians who would then say well why am i wasting my time with Jesus when i could just get on with life without him and still get in to heaven.Hmm...I think that good people will be saved but only this. See, good ones are saved and rewarded, good Christians become saints. I mean, a Native American who lived in 500 AD and was saved will not enjoy the same things Apostle Paul does in Heaven. Also, if you've met Christianity and rejected it, then you're committing a great sin. These men who did not meet our faith are not condemned as unbelievers.

    Haha, good news! Hell does not exist. At least, not as a place that is separated from Heaven and everyone is burning in actual fire and is tortured to death.
    Tell me what you think about this.

    I've changed my opinion about everything. This post is old and my new views are way cooler. Can't wait to change them again.
    • tehee10 sa...
    • Användare
    • 29 jan 2010, 04:07
    Now Grey Fox and Tee hee you tell me, honestly, that if you get into heaven and your family and freinds have all been condemned to hell for whatever reasons, you honestly tell me that you will still be happy up there kneeling for all eternity in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. because if thats true, and you would still happily do that, then you are just hollow! you have fallen into the trap that Catholocism set centurys ago to maintain controll over its followers, a trap that now seems to have dwindeld away from Catholics and has set itself anew in spin off denominations around the world where all out devotion and love is given to the Lord even over your own family. well skrew that!

    Here again, this group is a battle between believers and non-believers...If you tak the Bible for what it says "there be few that find Heaven"....then that means a greater percentage is going elsewhere equaling hell...and whether thats is literal fire, which I doubt, but in any case everywhere its mentioned as torment...If my family does not believe in the Bible & reject it, the punishment is spelled out...If we love God for what he has done for us with his Son, then we wouldn't mind being in Heaven worshipping him...Its also mentioned in the Bible there will be no sorrow or crying in heaven, so however that works, sadness won't be there...To say decent good boy or good girl is going to heaven goes against what the Bible teaches, on the other side of this...you can say its unfair that some of our family members, friends, etc. will go to Hell, well what can I say...It may not be fair, but eternal rest sounds a lot better than eternal punishment. If my parents go to Hell, its their own fault and that sounds harsh, but the only reason we say its unfair is because our emotions get into it....I'm just the type of person that has learned to accept the blunt truth...If we start to disbelieve what the Bible teaches and we begin to reason that everyone is going to heaven, then we might as well decide at that point whether we are going to believe it or not.... Once you start changing the message of the Bible, then where do you stop? So in my mind, one either accepts it or disowns it. Obviously the worldly / the evil / murderrs, etc. will go to hell...To add to the verses in Romans from Urocyon...let us think...Jesus came to be a physician for those who are sick? right? Yes! So those who do the things of the Bible, they are being the good people they ought to be...however those who blatantly are bad and/or reject the word, (those who are in need of a physician because they are "sick")...die (physical in the world perspective) (spiritually in the eternal destination)...and if you are one who completely believes the Bible, then lets let the Bible speak for itself....give us verses...and we'll have a discussion on that...

    Carlton L. Crasher..."His WIsdom Is Greater than Ours"
    http://www.personalitypage.com/INFJ.html
    www.personalitypage.com/INFJ_rel.html

    Really Lengthy Discussions please use tehee10@gmail.com instead of pm's
    • tehee10 sa...
    • Användare
    • 29 jan 2010, 14:50
    Meanwhile Teehee (nice avatar by the way)...its actually a picture of my eye....yay for macro mode on my canon ^^

    Carlton L. Crasher..."His WIsdom Is Greater than Ours"
    http://www.personalitypage.com/INFJ.html
    www.personalitypage.com/INFJ_rel.html

    Really Lengthy Discussions please use tehee10@gmail.com instead of pm's
  • ok so we all go to heaven then? its just that those who never beleived wont "shine" so much and as a result be miserable and "embarassed" in the light of the lord? ok? but see how come thats in the same bible that you both read yet you both have such a different view of the after life?

    and no i can't give you vurses, for a start i've never read the whole bible, secondly i've not got anywhere near enough time to read it (haha and i know what you're saying now) but i'm currently reading a book on world war 2 first hand accounts and i've about 12 books after that which i recently bought and want to read haha, and thirdly i grew up learning the bible in a completly different fashion to most, we were read stories from the bible which were adapted and edited for children, in nice illustrated books which still held the moral meaning of the stories but in a more attractive and understandable fashion for children to remember them, and i have to admit it worked for me anyway haha, plus i have absaloutly no intention of pouring over my bible and picking out quotes to argue over when the whole thing is so arguable and everyone has an opinion on the bible, but if you go in to it everyone has a different opinion on each verse to,

    so Jesus offers you eternity of worshipping him in his own glory, if you die and find it's all wrong that theres actually eternall happiness or something but all those who lived good lives got in (this is very broad example now but you get the idea) how would you feel? gutted that theres no Jesus and you devoted your life to him? or what?

    and yah thats a brill pic Teehee! i like very much haha

    Smile, it suits you ;-D
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