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  • Female masturbation is not prohibited

    Prove me wrong.

    ^If this post is more than 5 months old, I've already regretted posting it.
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    • minutz3 sa...
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    • 18 okt 2010, 08:02

    Duuh...

    It's pretty obvios that it's wrong.
    Just look in the Bible, where Jesus says that it is a sin just to look at someone with lust. If you act upon this it's even worse of course.
    Matthew 5:28: "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."

    From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
    2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action." "The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose." For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."


    2396 Among the sins gravely contrary to chastity are masturbation, fornication, pornography, and homosexual practices.

    - http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm

    Every change that really matters comes from within.

    You're always welcome to visit my web log: http://minutz3.blogspot.com/
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  • Just look in the Bible, where Jesus says that it is a sin just to look at someone with lust. If you act upon this it's even worse of course.
    I think even Urocyon will disagree with this ludicrous idea.

    Peace, peace! he is not dead, he doth not sleep - He hath awakened from the dream of life-
    'Tis we, who lost in stormy visions, keep with phantoms an unprofitable strife,
    And in mad trance, strike with our spirit's knife invulnerable nothings. - We decay
    Like corpses in a charnel; fear and grief convulse us and consume us day by day,
    And cold hopes swarm like worms within our living clay.
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    • minutz3 sa...
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    • 18 okt 2010, 18:40
    VampyreAngel said:
    Just look in the Bible, where Jesus says that it is a sin just to look at someone with lust. If you act upon this it's even worse of course.
    I think even Urocyon will disagree with this ludicrous idea.
    What do you mean?

    Every change that really matters comes from within.

    You're always welcome to visit my web log: http://minutz3.blogspot.com/
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  • Sorry. Urocyon is The_gray_fox.

    Peace, peace! he is not dead, he doth not sleep - He hath awakened from the dream of life-
    'Tis we, who lost in stormy visions, keep with phantoms an unprofitable strife,
    And in mad trance, strike with our spirit's knife invulnerable nothings. - We decay
    Like corpses in a charnel; fear and grief convulse us and consume us day by day,
    And cold hopes swarm like worms within our living clay.
    Permalänk  Citera

  • Re: Duuh...

    minutz3 said:
    It's pretty obvios that it's wrong.
    Just look in the Bible, where Jesus says that it is a sin just to look at someone with lust. If you act upon this it's even worse of course.
    Matthew 5:28: "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."    What if she masturbates thinking of her husband or if she doesn't think of anything at all?

    As for catechism, I can't accept it, since the Papal Church is a heresy, hurrr, durrr...(okay, I'm just trolling about that, elaborate above)

    ^If this post is more than 5 months old, I've already regretted posting it.
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  • Minutz3,

    This was a topic that, no pun intended, you should not have touched. Well, a little pun intended. Okay, a lot of pun.

    But the point is, arguing in this forum, is not one where you will win. This subject was framed in such a vague way in order to elicit a response, with no clear guidelines. This is done in order that any contrary ideas could then be avoided, by changing the scope of the initial statement dependent upon what your answer was.

    Come on. He was just trying to mess with anyone who would react. Take this for what it is a lesson in choosing your battles.

    Fox is simply looking for reactive Christians that he can laugh at, harass or try to prove to be ill informed. And even if you were to give a well documented and logical answer, he would simply do as he did with you and say, "I don't believe in that" and change the scope again.

    Fox,

    I knew where you were going with this whole subject and really I don't care if it is right or wrong for a woman, or a man to masturbate. I agree that the Bible has clear cut answers regarding lusting toward another, as Minutz3 had referenced, and regarding the fact that what you have done in your heart, you have done. But, in the end, the simple message is that we ALL have sinned. And that God made a way for us to be with Him, through Jesus sacrifice.

    We could go around and around the subject of Christian beliefs for years and all that we would accomplish is to say that we agree on a few things and disagree on many others. You cannot change my faith in God. I have felt His touch, heard His voice and have seen Him working in my life and the lives of others. And I cannot convince you of anything that you are unwilling to accept. Case closed. We will get nowhere with these pointless arguments. But I know that this will not dissuade you from your quest. Such is life.

    I will only say that if you truly give God a chance, and if He changes you (which is not a bad thing, honestly), like He changed me, your life will never be the same. Is my life perfect, no. But I know, that I know, that I know, that I am loved by my creator and will spend eternity with Him, in a place that He has prepared for me. I have been given a future filled with hope. Now that is pretty freakin' cool if you ask me.

    OneMouseRevolt

    P.S. What good is it to gain the whole world and lose your soul?

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  • Fox is simply looking for reactive Christians that he can laugh at, harass or try to prove to be ill informed.

    .....
    are you talking about the_gray_fox, who just started studying theology in the university, and, oh, look at what he writes in his profile. Hmmmmmmmmm. Yep, he's a christian. I 've warned him against it though.



    So you see, your last 2 paragraphs are quite entertaining in that light.
    Gray Urocyon fox, do you now see how easily you christians get offended?

    Peace, peace! he is not dead, he doth not sleep - He hath awakened from the dream of life-
    'Tis we, who lost in stormy visions, keep with phantoms an unprofitable strife,
    And in mad trance, strike with our spirit's knife invulnerable nothings. - We decay
    Like corpses in a charnel; fear and grief convulse us and consume us day by day,
    And cold hopes swarm like worms within our living clay.
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  • I am sorry, but my recollection of Fox does not include him/her defending Christianity in this forum. So... what is it Fox? Where do you stand, honestly?

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  • I'm just asking if female masturbation is acceptable, but I am doing it in a provoking way. Almost seems I'm challenging you, in order to 'to mess with anyone who would react'.

    OneMouseRevolt said:
    Fox is simply looking for reactive Christians that he can laugh at, harass or try to prove to be ill informed. And even if you were to give a well documented and logical answer, he would simply do as he did with you and say, "I don't believe in that" and change the scope again.    LOL, not true, but...you got me. I wasn't exactly trying to discuss female masturbation and I wasn't exactly looking for a response from a Catholic/Orthodox Christian. I'd like to see how a Protestant would reply to this, but I didn't direct this questions to Protestants specifically, because I wouldn't like to leave the rest outside.

    It's good to know you have such faith in God though and I'm glad we have people like you around, but I've never seen you at the forums either! Well, there's a first time for everything, I guess...

    P.S. What good is it to gain the whole world and lose your soul?There isn't. Whoops, replying to rhetorical questions isn't smart, heh...

    I am sorry, but my recollection of Fox does not include him/her defending Christianity in this forum. So... what is it Fox? Where do you stand, honestly?I'm merely trying to forcefully convert all non-Christians, so they will be saved by the Inquisition I will start later myself. If God wants to be nice to them, I don't care - they will die by my torch and by my blade. It's a dirt job, but someone has to make soap companies richer.
    At times, I turn into a good Eastern Orthodox Christian, but that lasts for like one or two posts per month.

    ^If this post is more than 5 months old, I've already regretted posting it.
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  • P.S. What good is it to gain the whole world and lose your soul?
    There isn't. Whoops, replying to rhetorical questions isn't smart, heh...
    Sadly, you are unable to offer me the whole world - or even half of it, for which I would gladly lose / sell my soul (among other things).
    Hell, the only reason I wouldn't do it for a chocolate is because I don't want to look cheap.


    If anyone cares for my opinion, I would suppose male masturbation is umm, not encouraged because of the waste of life-giving sperm. Females shouldn't have a problem.
    Then again, ancient lawmaker Judiel Weirdlaweh probably didn't know that sperm doesn't last long and gets replenished anyway, so that it isn't a waste afterall, unless that means you have to try to reproduce every few days. In the light of this knowledge, one would expect the Churches to have abolished this rule based on such a now discernable misconception and keep in touch with reality. Ok, that's actually not a true expectation.

    Peace, peace! he is not dead, he doth not sleep - He hath awakened from the dream of life-
    'Tis we, who lost in stormy visions, keep with phantoms an unprofitable strife,
    And in mad trance, strike with our spirit's knife invulnerable nothings. - We decay
    Like corpses in a charnel; fear and grief convulse us and consume us day by day,
    And cold hopes swarm like worms within our living clay.
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    • Waldheri sa...
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    • 27 okt 2010, 17:48
    This goes back to the Old Testament (at least, it is usually presented). It's about two brothers, Er and Onan, whose father was called Judah. Judah got Er married to a woman called Tamar. But because he did something that the Lord considered wicked, the Lord put him to death.

    Now Judah was left with no grandson, and so he instructed Er's brother Onan to lie with Tamar to produce offspring to continue the male patriarchal line. But Onan knew that the children wouldn't be his, so every time he had sex with Tamar he didn't ejaculate inside her, but spilled his seed on the ground.

    The Lord wasn't pleased, and put him to death too.Genesis 28: 1 At that time, Judah left his brothers and went down to stay with a man of Adullam named Hirah. 2 There Judah met the daughter of a Canaanite man named Shua. He married her and lay with her; 3 she became pregnant and gave birth to a son, who was named Er. 4 She conceived again and gave birth to a son and named him Onan. 5 She gave birth to still another son and named him Shelah. It was at Kezib that she gave birth to him.

    6 Judah got a wife for Er, his firstborn, and her name was Tamar. 7 But Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the LORD's sight; so the LORD put him to death.

    8 Then Judah said to Onan, "Lie with your brother's wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother." 9 But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did was wicked in the LORD's sight; so he put him to death also.
    Later, Tamar decides to dress up as a prostitute and Judah, her father-in-law, sleeps with her for the price of a goat and so she managed to get offspring for Judah's line after all.

    This Bible thingy is fucking funny.

    In any case, the point I'm trying to make is that people often use this reference to Onan to say masturbation is not allowed by God, but the passage clearly shows that he was not masturbating. He was merely pulling out. So, to prevent any other confusion:

    DEATH TO THOSE WHO PRACTICE COITUS INTERRUPTUS WHEN HAVING SEX WITH THEIR SISTERS-IN-LAW

    Meshuggah: "A combination of the powerful and the avant-garde, the band is as visceral and imposing an act as you’ll ever see and hear, guitarists Fredrik Thordendal, Mårten Hagström, and bassist Dick Lövgren hammering out lurching, monolithic riffs as they headbang in robotic unison, vocalist Jens Kidman barking out surreal verses like a twisted drill sergeant while gesticulating like a puppet on strings. - Adrien Begrand (PopMatters)
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  • Only this was 'wicked in the Lord's sight' not because he just pulled out (the act itself is not being condemned here), but because he did not impregnate his dead brother's wife. Even if coitus interreptus was not considered something bad, the act would still be characterized as disobedience.

    ^If this post is more than 5 months old, I've already regretted posting it.
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  • Death penalty for not impregnating your wicked brother's widow.
    Still sounds weird.

    Also weird:
    But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his;

    Here's a question: Why on Earth not?

    Peace, peace! he is not dead, he doth not sleep - He hath awakened from the dream of life-
    'Tis we, who lost in stormy visions, keep with phantoms an unprofitable strife,
    And in mad trance, strike with our spirit's knife invulnerable nothings. - We decay
    Like corpses in a charnel; fear and grief convulse us and consume us day by day,
    And cold hopes swarm like worms within our living clay.
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    • Waldheri sa...
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    • 31 okt 2010, 08:21
    Urocyon: Yes, I think that's right - pulling out wasn't so bad as the consequence of it: leaving Er without descendants. Which leads me to VampyreAngel's question:

    Because - as far as I understand early Jewish tradition - the children would be considered the descendants of Er. The firstborn would inherit Er's stuff. They would not be considered Onan's children in the eyes of that society.

    Getting back to the original issue - If you agree that Onan's sin was disobedience (DEATH) or not providing his brother with descendents (DEATH), then where does it say in the Bible that even male masturbation is prohibited?

    Meshuggah: "A combination of the powerful and the avant-garde, the band is as visceral and imposing an act as you’ll ever see and hear, guitarists Fredrik Thordendal, Mårten Hagström, and bassist Dick Lövgren hammering out lurching, monolithic riffs as they headbang in robotic unison, vocalist Jens Kidman barking out surreal verses like a twisted drill sergeant while gesticulating like a puppet on strings. - Adrien Begrand (PopMatters)
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  • Because - as far as I understand early Jewish tradition - the children would be considered the descendants of Er. The firstborn would inherit Er's stuff. They would not be considered Onan's children in the eyes of that society.

    Ok. But still, why must a guy who was executed by God for being wicked keep, by any means necessary, his bloodline? Why is it so important that the evil guy has (legal) descendants?
    I understand that ancient societies' traditions don't always make much sense*, but the curiosity remains.





    *(Hey, here's an idea! Let's bury a few hundred people alive to keep the king company!)

    Peace, peace! he is not dead, he doth not sleep - He hath awakened from the dream of life-
    'Tis we, who lost in stormy visions, keep with phantoms an unprofitable strife,
    And in mad trance, strike with our spirit's knife invulnerable nothings. - We decay
    Like corpses in a charnel; fear and grief convulse us and consume us day by day,
    And cold hopes swarm like worms within our living clay.
    Permalänk  Citera
  • Waldheri said:
    Getting back to the original issue - If you agree that Onan's sin was disobedience (DEATH) or not providing his brother with descendents (DEATH), then where does it say in the Bible that even male masturbation is prohibited?     It doesn't have to be in the Bible.

    ^If this post is more than 5 months old, I've already regretted posting it.
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    • Waldheri sa...
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    • 31 okt 2010, 18:27
    Oh dear, you might just have invoked the wrath of wimme.

    Can you elaborate? Where if not in the Bible?

    Meshuggah: "A combination of the powerful and the avant-garde, the band is as visceral and imposing an act as you’ll ever see and hear, guitarists Fredrik Thordendal, Mårten Hagström, and bassist Dick Lövgren hammering out lurching, monolithic riffs as they headbang in robotic unison, vocalist Jens Kidman barking out surreal verses like a twisted drill sergeant while gesticulating like a puppet on strings. - Adrien Begrand (PopMatters)
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  • Waldheri said:
    Oh dear, you might just have invoked the wrath of wimme.    I know. Am I not awesome? :3

    Can you elaborate? Where if not in the Bible?Any God-inspired source. If a person has received Divine Knowledge and has noted it down, that's where to look. It can be almost anything, from the Bible to an icon.

    ^If this post is more than 5 months old, I've already regretted posting it.
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  • That was pretty much my initial intention. See, you can casually patch up the holes of masturbation by using some passages from the Mosaic Law, which say that semen is considered unclean, but you can't find anything about women.
    There are passages about the blood of menstrual cycles, but nothing about any sexual fluids women discharge. Thus, there is not a single thing in the Bible that would prevent women from masturbating, there is no 100% clear statement or anything to deduce that female masturbation is supposed to be prohibited.

    ^If this post is more than 5 months old, I've already regretted posting it.
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    • wimme sa...
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    • 2 nov 2010, 00:00
    If a woman bears a child she's also unclean for a number of days. Does that mean it is prohibited to bear a child?? Waldheri is right here: there isn't anything in the Bible to conclude that even male masturbation should be prohibited.

    Anyone can be unclean at any time for a whole lot of different reasons in which case there are rules regarding that uncleanness. In general, it has nothing to do with anything forbidden, or even anything sinful.

    Masturbation however, is generally related to something sinful, like adultery or even immorality. But not necessarily, and only the one who does it knows what it relates to (in his own mind) and that is between him and God.

    You can be clean from masturbating the next day, but becoming clean doesn't undo or forgive any sin. There's more to say but maybe later.

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    • Waldheri sa...
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    • 2 nov 2010, 13:01
    @Urocyon: but then you have an epistemic problem: how would you deduce that a particular medium is God-inspired?

    Meshuggah: "A combination of the powerful and the avant-garde, the band is as visceral and imposing an act as you’ll ever see and hear, guitarists Fredrik Thordendal, Mårten Hagström, and bassist Dick Lövgren hammering out lurching, monolithic riffs as they headbang in robotic unison, vocalist Jens Kidman barking out surreal verses like a twisted drill sergeant while gesticulating like a puppet on strings. - Adrien Begrand (PopMatters)
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  • http://www.smbc-comics.com/?db=comics&id=1999#comic

    Peace, peace! he is not dead, he doth not sleep - He hath awakened from the dream of life-
    'Tis we, who lost in stormy visions, keep with phantoms an unprofitable strife,
    And in mad trance, strike with our spirit's knife invulnerable nothings. - We decay
    Like corpses in a charnel; fear and grief convulse us and consume us day by day,
    And cold hopes swarm like worms within our living clay.
    Permalänk  Citera
    • Xcava86X sa...
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    • 4 nov 2010, 09:53
    If masturbation is a sin I am screwed, definitely

    ♪ Mausiqie mayree jaan ♫
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