A question

 
  • A question

    As an ex-Christian, I used to believe that God was omnipotent, and knew everything that we have done and will do. Seeing as he is all-powerful and time does not exist for him as we know it, he has been there and will always be. With this in mind, I ask this question:

    If God knows us, everything we do, and everything we will do, does free will really exist?

    Here is my reasoning to the contrary: If one concedes that God exists (I am an atheist) and that he knows everything, what would be the point of free will? As I understand, free will was to allow us the choice to believe or not...That if God made us all believers in him, and gave us no choice in the matter, it would be moot to worship, as it would be empty in sincerity. After all, we would be forced to do so, and what gratifying element would God gain from mindless drones praising emptily?

    Naturally this doesn't make sense, but is not the fact that God knows our every move in the future the same thing? After all, he knows that this person or that person is going to pray at this or that time, that he/she will praise him at this or that time, and therefore, doesn't really leave room for sincerity, and doesn't leave room for the fact that it's free will because it's pre-destined. Being pre-ordained thus doesn't equal free will in my book.

    Pre-ordination CANNOT not exist if God is omniscient. If he is not, then he is not God.

    What are your thoughts?

    Antonín Dvořák, Non-Drinkers, and Kauan :) Join if you're interested :)
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    Redigerad av hjbardenhagen den 5 aug 2011, 08:17
    • AnUub1s sa...
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    • 21 maj 2009, 16:32

    [spam]

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    I've just listened


    Redigerad av hjbardenhagen den 15 nov 2011, 09:37
  • @roomfor2please:

    That is the most base and mindless answer I have ever heard. That's like saying "cuz the Bible tells me so", like in the nursery rhyme. You know why that's a nursery rhyme? So little babies and kids can understand, despite not acquiring the ability for antiquated thought. Thanks for that worthless input.

    @David:
    True you are right in that God doesn't exist in "Time" but it still does not alleviate the fact that God still knows what we will do. There has to be some sort of continuum, unless you are saying that I could be an old man in God's eyes prior to being an infant? Or perhaps he sees everyone at all times at the same time? That still does not show that he isn't privvy to what we will do, and it still doesn't refute the fact that despite us thinking we have free will, we really don't because God knows the end and outcome of all situations. Substitute the word "time" with whatever God has, but there must be a progression, otherwise there is entropy.

    Antonín Dvořák, Non-Drinkers, and Kauan :) Join if you're interested :)
    • AnUub1s sa...
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    • 21 maj 2009, 21:31

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    I've just listened


    Redigerad av hjbardenhagen den 15 nov 2011, 09:37
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    Redigerad av hjbardenhagen den 5 aug 2011, 08:17
  • Perhaps this is true David, but whether or not God is time-independant or not, WE are time-dependant variables, thus, for us (despite existing without time in God's eyes), I feel we only COULD exist in a time in his eyes because we are time based. I hope that makes sense. Just because God's operations are not time based, everything involving "his creation" IS, thus we can only be viewed in a time continuum, or else our existance is nullified. We just don't operate in a timeless system.

    Antonín Dvořák, Non-Drinkers, and Kauan :) Join if you're interested :)
  • Sorry double post.

    Antonín Dvořák, Non-Drinkers, and Kauan :) Join if you're interested :)
  • You stole that question. You were unable to come up with something on your own.
    And you weren't a Christian before.

    I've changed my opinion about everything. This post is old and my new views are way cooler. Can't wait to change them again.
  • Nevermind though, we all have questions. ;-)
    So, here's the answer. You are welcome to drop by and talk about it, if you need any further clarifications.

    http://www.last.fm/group/Christians+at+Last.FM/forum/51003/_/535764#f9509630

    I've changed my opinion about everything. This post is old and my new views are way cooler. Can't wait to change them again.
    • ISoS sa...
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    • 22 maj 2009, 16:11
    Gray_Fox, that doesn't even remotely relate to this thread you fool! I keep trying to tell you these things, but you NEVER listen.

    Anyway, HailMarduk is right, it generates a paradox that invalidates itself. This is an aspect of my proof that God does not exist. All you need to understand is how infinity works.

    Here's why it breaks the principle. If God is infinite and timeless then he is omniscient and will know all that happens regardless of what happens in our dimension, because he would be removed (on the outside) of our existence and percieve things very differently. But in order to do this, God would need to exist in infinite dimensional realities at all times. So, what Christians are REALLY suggesting is that God does this.

    This allows for pre-destination to exist, as God knows everything that will happen. God would technically be the only being with any free-will as God is on the outside and existing in everything, thus he can manipulate objects as he wishes on whatever timeline or dimension he sees fit.

    Okay, that would perfectly work if all anyone said was "god is omniscient". They don't, instead they say that man has free will. If man has free will, then God does not know what man will do, thus god cannot be omniscient. While mankind exists within a three dimensional universe, experiencing a two dimensional surface, our perception is quite limited when faced with things like "infinity" or "infinite dimensions." (see Rudy Ruckers "The 4th Dimension")

    As you can see a very strange paradox comes about, both axioms cannot exist in the same space. Regardless if people say "god can do what he wants", this violates fundamental logic of infinity and if you want to say that "God can define" then you are saying that God can CHOOSE to not be infinite, which anyone who understands infinity, knows you can't do that since it violates the principles of what infinity ACTUALLY means!

    In conclusion we see that if God is omniscient, then free will cannot exist. He knows what we will do and judges us on it. Thus God is also not just, because hypothetically God could, at any moment, intervene and help us, but chooses not to (since he is the only being with free will). On the other hand if mankind actually has free will then God is not omniscient, nor is God infinite or any other "omni-" related word. Thus he is something "less" than deity and not God. Either way you look at it, God is either grossly irresponsible or not infinite, neither of which is worthy of being called a "God".

    My other half: Anath
    Read Black/Death Metal reviews here!: Subjected to Metal
  • I've changed my opinion about everything. This post is old and my new views are way cooler. Can't wait to change them again.
    • ISoS sa...
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    • 22 maj 2009, 17:20
    the_gray_fox said:
    More.
    http://www.last.fm/group/Christians+at+Last.FM/forum/51003/_/532998/5#f9510884


    For those who go there, you will see that Gray_Fox backs up my proof against God. You will easily see how it contradicts itself and thus cannot exist. Thank you Gray_Fox.

    My other half: Anath
    Read Black/Death Metal reviews here!: Subjected to Metal
  • You're welcome.

    I've changed my opinion about everything. This post is old and my new views are way cooler. Can't wait to change them again.
    • AnUub1s sa...
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    • 22 maj 2009, 19:51

    [spam]

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    I've just listened


    Redigerad av hjbardenhagen den 15 nov 2011, 09:37
  • Therein lies another problem David, which, of course, gray_fox will refute, and insult over, but the whole of religion is flawed because it is made by man. The Bible is written by men, it was put together at the council of Nicaea (Nicaean Creed, and bible construction), and is preached by man.

    If man was to be born into original sin, then man is flawed no matter what. If God-spoken word is written down, it is flawed. That is, of course, if God made the writing perfect through man, thus making man perfect in doing so, and thus makes him God. But there was only one "Son of God", so the words written down are flawed. If not, you contradict your own doctrine; which is quite easy to do, because it was written, etc. by MAN.

    The whole concept of Catholicism is based upon the phrase Jesus supposedly spoke: "on you Peter, I build my Church"...thus the Papacy and all that which resulted further on in history. The whole of Catholicism is flawed because it is dictated by MEN, the catechism was written by MEN....There are good life principles in any of the Christian denominations, but to be so smug to say you are right, and a Taoist priest is wrong...Judge not lest you be judged yourself right? Eh there fox? And who/where, in your infinitessimally small brain, do you ever think you are in the position to determine whether or not I had faith....Have you ever heard of "born again"? This means that one lost their faith, and regained it. So, you might as well give up the group right now, because you are proven to be a holier-than-thou hypocrite in that one sentence that you uttered through your fingers.

    Basically my stance is that of iSoS...but that was another tangent that I went on here.

    Antonín Dvořák, Non-Drinkers, and Kauan :) Join if you're interested :)
    • [Raderad användare] sa...
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    • 25 maj 2009, 16:01
    hailmarduk666 said:
    which, of course, gray_fox will refute, and insult over


    I haven't been involved with this topic, but I just wanted to point out that posts that include stuff like this make me not want to respond.

    Why did you feel the need to include this? It adds nothing to the discussion, it doesn't help get your point across, it's basically a nothing statement meant only in insight people. I'm not blaming only as posting these, poeple from both sides here have done it, but I'm using you as an example.

    Please stop posting "No one answered me, so I'm right" or "If you have the guts to answer me" or "If you have true faith, you'll answer, etc. Posting that kind of crap does nothing to motivate us to actually post, and everything to just leave it where it is.

  • Then don't respond. The reason that was included is because I was insulted earlier by gray_fox, and he has the tendency by his responses to ridicule, or attempt (albeit weak) to offend when he doesn't know the answer. Let me know where I said any one of the phrases in quotations you cited...that would be great.

    You said yourself that you haven't been following the thread. Maybe you should research a post of that nature before-hand. look maybe 5 posts up at what fox said to me, and maybe you will see what I am talking about ;)

    Antonín Dvořák, Non-Drinkers, and Kauan :) Join if you're interested :)
  • hailmarduk666 said:
    Therein lies another problem David, which, of course, gray_fox will refute, and insult over,

    Yes, haha...

    but the whole of religion is flawed because it is made by man.
    No.

    The Bible is written by men, it was put together at the council of Nicaea (Nicaean Creed, and bible construction),
    Kinda.

    and is preached by man.
    Again, kinda.

    If man was to be born into original sin, then man is flawed no matter what.
    No, who the heck told you that we carry the original sin? I mean...lol, Catholix!

    If God-spoken word is written down, it is flawed. That is, of course, if God made the writing perfect through man, thus making man perfect in doing so, and thus makes him God.
    No. The fact that one is enlightened doesn't mean that he is infallible. Neither the Holy Spirit is a submitter nor are humans lifeless puppet-scribes.
    (Come on, fundies, attack me, I don't care.)

    But there was only one "Son of God", so the words written down are flawed. If not, you contradict your own doctrine; which is quite easy to do, because it was written, etc. by MAN.
    It's easy to contradict our own doctrines, not because they were written down by men, but because we fail at understanding them most times.

    The whole concept of Catholicism is based upon the phrase Jesus supposedly spoke: "on you Peter, I build my Church"...thus the Papacy and all that which resulted further on in history. The whole of Catholicism is flawed because it is dictated by MEN, the catechism was written by MEN....There are good life principles in any of the Christian denominations, but to be so smug to say you are right, and a Taoist priest is wrong...
    I agree with most of that, down with the God-damned Papacy. Amen and blessed be, friend. :-)

    Judge not lest you be judged yourself right? Eh there fox? And who/where, in your infinitessimally small brain, do you ever think you are in the position to determine whether or not I had faith....Have you ever heard of "born again"? This means that one lost their faith, and regained it. So, you might as well give up the group right now, because you are proven to be a holier-than-thou hypocrite in that one sentence that you uttered through your fingers.
    Heeeey, you misunderstood me, dude! It wasn't me that said that, it's the Bible.
    1 John 2:19
    They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

    I've changed my opinion about everything. This post is old and my new views are way cooler. Can't wait to change them again.
  • An Answer

    The fact that God knew that we would fall does not mean that He made us so that we fall.
    He made us despite He knew it, because that's what He wanted. Interfering or anything would violate free will.

    Cheers!

    I've changed my opinion about everything. This post is old and my new views are way cooler. Can't wait to change them again.
  • Well how about we take it from the source, instead of some disciple (a fallible man)...and stick with what Jesus said:

    "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3:3).

    Antonín Dvořák, Non-Drinkers, and Kauan :) Join if you're interested :)
  • It's easy to contradict our own doctrines, not because they were written down by men, but because we fail at understanding them most times.

    Your own doctrines contradict themselves, because it is written by a man.

    No, who the heck told you that we carry the original sin? I mean...lol, Catholix!

    But the Orthodox church still accepts that the world is fallen as a result. If we are born into a fallen world are we not fallen too? I love how people interpret the words differently, and if they don't like one part, they say: Oh well the Bible doesn't say that, and if one doesn't agree, everyone falls back on the fail-safe "oh well we are just human...we cannot decipher the words of God". But the "Words" are written by man, how can you be sure that they weren't "interpreted" when written down in the first place? There is no definitive infallability of the words in the Bible, and how can one place faith in something conceived by man? If you say that is not true, then what is the New Testament than a collection of stories, written by some guys a long time ago? Same with the Old Testament, where it was a history of the Israelites and foreshadowing of Jesus....A bunch of stories written by PEOPLE.

    Nobody's perfect is a very common quote, and true, and thus no one is perfect in writing books of the Bible, thus the Bible is not perfect. How can a religion be based on a flawed text?

    Antonín Dvořák, Non-Drinkers, and Kauan :) Join if you're interested :)
  • hailmarduk666 said:
    Your own doctrines contradict themselves, because it is written by a man.

    I strongly believe that you won't find any flaws in the Christian theology. It's perfect, complete and totally reasonable. The only problem lies in believing that God, Heaven etc. are true...

    But the Orthodox church still accepts that the world is fallen as a result. If we are born into a fallen world are we not fallen too?
    Hmm, we're playing with words here. The Orthodox Church holds the belief that we are mortal not because we carry the sin (which we don't), but because our ancestors were also mortals. I mean, why would a mortal give birth to an immortal?
    God is not going to blame us for eating the apple, you and I committed no original sin! But we sure are going to be judged for our rest sins.

    I love how people interpret the words differently, and if they don't like one part, they say: Oh well the Bible doesn't say that, and if one doesn't agree, everyone falls back on the fail-safe "oh well we are just human...we cannot decipher the words of God".
    I love it too, but it sometimes messes things up. Please, don't mind that. Not every Christian knows everything about Christianity, one gets stuck here, the other gets stuck there.

    But the "Words" are written by man, how can you be sure that they weren't "interpreted" when written down in the first place? There is no definitive infallability of the words in the Bible, and how can one place faith in something conceived by man? If you say that is not true, then what is the New Testament than a collection of stories, written by some guys a long time ago? Same with the Old Testament, where it was a history of the Israelites and foreshadowing of Jesus....A bunch of stories written by PEOPLE.
    Theories which cannot be (dis)proven. If they could, we would all be Christians/atheists. Just try to debate as if you're seeing things from our perspective, taking the Bible as a God-sent book.

    Nobody's perfect is a very common quote, and true, and thus no one is perfect in writing books of the Bible, thus the Bible is not perfect. How can a religion be based on a flawed text?
    The Bible is not perfect concerning science for example. I've written extensively about that in another thread. Anyway, the Bible isn't here to teach us astronomy or biology or medicine. No, God gave us logic and science in order to do that. The Bible is just about ethics and a small taste about God's plans. God isn't in the Bible only.

    I've changed my opinion about everything. This post is old and my new views are way cooler. Can't wait to change them again.
  • hailmarduk666 said:
    Well how about we take it from the source, instead of some disciple (a fallible man)...and stick with what Jesus said:

    "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3:3).

    I never said anything contradictory to that.

    I've changed my opinion about everything. This post is old and my new views are way cooler. Can't wait to change them again.
  • And you weren't a Christian before.

    Eh there fox? And who/where, in your infinitessimally small brain, do you ever think you are in the position to determine whether or not I had faith....Have you ever heard of "born again"?

    Heeeey, you misunderstood me, dude! It wasn't me that said that, it's the Bible., and then you cited 1 John 2:19, and I cited Jesus talking about people being born again in faith.

    so...
    I never said anything contradictory to that.

    Yes you did.

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