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Automated & manual Artist disambiguation: How to drastically improve this site,…

 
    • dankine sa...
    • Användare
    • 5 dec 2010, 14:05
    I think the most accurate time you will get is "when it's done".

    • rwitte sa...
    • Abonnent
    • 9 dec 2010, 23:17
    bumping and tracking

    • Tombo60 sa...
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    • 10 dec 2010, 09:06
    This idea is truly great! I hope that this idea is implemented. It would greatly improve the site so much!

    Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me! ♫

  • dankine said:
    I think the most accurate time you will get is "when it's done".


    That's pretty much the only answer being given. However I can't help but notice the importance fixes and ideas like the ones I've proposed in this thread are going be instrumental in renewing the unique viability of this site after everything that has occurred.

    • dankine sa...
    • Användare
    • 13 dec 2010, 09:38
    I agree. Sorting this problem out would massively improve almost every aspect of the site.

  • Not just the disambiguation issue, but overall information accuracy and the soc-net aspects and keeping lfm as a streaming service going by utilizing the cloud and keeping their own streaming for independent artists who agree to royalty free streaming from lfm directly.

    • IanAR sa...
    • Abonnent
    • 14 jan 2011, 21:59

    [Layered Tag System] Act-Name: & Discogs # or Territory + [Genre or Yearformed] - Manual Alleviation

    Hi Evan'n'all - I got here via Forum » Web Site Support » Artist with same name. I've not bothered looking for such a thread, previously, since my blithe metal process was "By jiggerdy, Last.FM - Quit shooting y'self in the foot, already, & follow Discogs!".

    /help/faq?category=103#208 is my friend - As in, I rectify hijacked 'shared artist-name' pages - at least once, most weeks.

    Arriving, I saw twelve pages of discussion with 'layered tag system' in the thread-synopsis.
    iTranscendence said:
    *layered tag system with a list of specific tags, 3 layers, genre,style and general tags, similar again to discogs. This will allow users to filter artists more efficiently when so desired, by filtering out certain tags, or layers of tags.
    I Googled the thread for: tag | tagging | tagged layers | layering | layered & failed to find much development / critique of the idea. (Pls, point me at relevant posts I may've missed.)

    Vector Tagging: It strikes me that 'vector tagging', of the form ...class: sub-class: ......provides a manual way-ahead <snag> for romanized artist names, only </snag>

    I've, recently, been playing with this form of 'vector tagging', for the support of rockumentaries, e.g. film: The Delian Mode.

    With <snag> cooperation </snag> this could be a manual way ahead, fixing some of the problem, for the majority of artist-name conflicts, e.g. at least, providing a dedicated wiki, for where a master copy of artists' wiki-portion (for a shared artist-name page wiki).

    I've not thought trough <snag?> the long-term value / portability & possible contribution to a, LastFM coded, auto-Discogs-import based fix </snag?> - I hate doing throwaway work!

    Genre / Style / General Crit: I'm not familiar w/ Discogs' genre / style / general layers - However, I don't see the strongest bearing of the combo', for artist-name disambiguation.

    Discogs # or Territory + [Genre or Yearformed] Thoughts: Artist-names are a sort of brand-name / trade-mark and, thus - generally (at least, when there's any risk of lawyer involvement), subject to the same market-based limitations, in music terms territory + broad-genre, i.e. we seldom have multiple brands, both: from the same place & providing similar product.

    After fixing dozens of shared artist-name wikis - I think, the closest I've seen is Belladonna, where the most played is a Perugia, Italy DJ & the most ... err ... enthusiastic is a Rome, Italy band. Thus - squinting our eyes - looking the accommodate the next higher order of similarity, since they're in Discogs, the tags ...

    Act: Belladonna: 1
    Act: Belladonna: 6


    ... if they weren't in Discogs ....

    Act: Belladonna: IT-Perugia: DJ
    Act: Belladonna: IT-Rome: Band


    ... & our DJ was , instead, a 50s band from Rome, that Act: Belladonna: 6 is cheekily reviving, under that same name ...

    Act: Belladonna: IT-Rome: 1957
    Act: Belladonna: IT-Rome: 2009


    ... <snag> shifting between those three disambiguation forms (e.g. upon discovery of a similar contender), might be a problem </snag>

    Also, <snag> all the above would be much easier to coordinate with a more complete wiki implementation, on LastFM </snag> (Cookie-cutter coding, if someone on staff had time.)

    NB: I thought rooting the system with something other than 'artist', e.g. Act:, would be good - to avoid confusion with ID3 tags.

    I hope that's, somewhat, novel & interesting :) Must get back to the other three things I was doing, now :/ Ian Audioscrobbler Addicts

  • It's ridiculous the lacking of priority on this case.

    Is someone from LastFM able to provide an estimated time to fix this issue?

    Slasher - Thrash Metal
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    • rwitte sa...
    • Abonnent
    • 19 jan 2011, 00:14
    bandaslasher said:
    It's ridiculous the lacking of priority on this case.

    Is someone from LastFM able to provide an estimated time to fix this issue?


    It is against last.fm's policy to give ETAs Previously Suggested Ideas said...

    You promised us [insert feature here], when will it be implemented?

    The generic answer to this question for EVERY idea is: As soon as it can be got to. The devs are working around the clock to get these issues resolved. (Sleep is for the weak.) What may seem like a simple thing to you may not be so simple on a system as extensive as Last.fm, so it may take time. Some bugs and ideas may also not be as important to the devs as they are to you. Add to that: If the devs give a specific date, and are unable to get it fixed by then, the whiners come out of the woodwork. So please, don't ask.


    but I saw this post today which is, at least, acknowledgement

  • @Ian Vector tagging seems similar however trying to disambiguate by region could still have conflicts, both Aes Dana are from France for example. The tag layering concept was conceived to help people pick and choose what tags they wanted a radio station to play with. By separating tags into a more set list of style and genre tags and more general list for peoples personal tags or preferences for separating music. Listeners can then filter which tags they want out of the general list, or the whole general list all together, and just go with specific core tags.

  • Thumbs up for a great idea!

  • I think they have to allow users to get more involved in the process and make it easier for us to actually get shit to happen first.

    Whatever way they go about this, there are going to be huge problems from it. It's inevitable. Then it's going to fall on the users to bring about the corrections. They certainly aren't going to pay a bunch of people to go through every page and find all the problems to fix. Not every label is on here to give info and they probably won't be putting out information on leaked unreleased music. Same goes for artists. Plus, they won't be spending all their time making sure every single thing is correct and they won't pay anyone to do it either. So it all falls on us, the users.

    However, we can barely do anything to help fix the problems now. We can vote to get measly redirects, capitalization fixes. The former has impossible requirements, especially when it's a wrongly tagged track with one listener on an artist with no shouts on their page. The latter we have to post in a thread and hope that a mod is bored enough to go through the posts and actually do the corrections. Why should we have to post and wait for someone else to fix the capitalization, when we as regular users are already willingly to fix the problem with capitalization?

    Wikipedia may not be exactly what last.fm needs to be, but it's proof that there are enough people out there that care about sharing accurate information. [excluding those who purposefully right false information, which the actual dedicated usually find quickly and remove anyway] The vast majority is just going to sponge off of the efforts of the contributors and do nothing in return, but wikipedia still is there with new entries every day.

    We just need to be able to actually DO something on last.fm. Things need to be drastically changed so that users can actually get some fixes in a timely manner. Not post/vote and then wait forever for something to happen with it.

    It's like if wikipedia changed their method to 'add information to queue that requires 500,000 positive votes to actually submit information' or 'send information to staff and wait for approval'. Nothing would ever happen then, just like it is here on last.fm. Users wouldn't have any real power and wikipedia would be a big fail.

    Dedicated users are an untapped resource here on last.fm. We're dying to fix things, but we can't because our power is next to nothing.

    /two cents

    • Sekir sa...
    • Användare
    • 25 feb 2011, 15:35
    DarkElvick said:
    I think they have to allow users to get more involved in the process and make it easier for us to actually get shit to happen first.


    I can't agree with this. IMHO lastfm need more moderation (and moderators).
    For example let use Saga page. There is RAC artist, and RAC tag on page. It looks like defamation. Of course, many people knows that canadian Saga is not RAC band, but many is not all. And Saga is not only with this problem.
    I know, that lastfm doesn't delete tags, but they can make "hide tool" for confusing tools.
    And moderation is simplest (but longest) way to make different pages

    Админы ластфм - казлы.
    • [Raderad användare] sa...
    • Användare
    • 25 feb 2011, 16:09
    I really wish I could hear the internal discussions that are happening about the disambiguation issue, to have some idea of where they are going with it and when. Alas, I doubt we are going to hear anything until (unless?) they get a solution ready to go.

    I would love a way to include what sets of tags are and are not included for determining "similarity" in radio stations. This would be useful not just for the artists-with-the-same-name problem -- another frequent complaint seen on these boards is that someone who listens to an obscure band that happens to be from "country X" or to sing in "language Y" gets hit with lots of other bands that happen to be from "country X" and/or singing in "language Y", regardless of musical similarity or lack thereof.

    I think a year or so ago I might have done some nit-picking about the method by which this could/should be done (I'm too lazy to dig through the thread to look right now, so if I did, I don't know if I still agree with what I said), but I definitely like the ideas both of being able to distinguish between bands with the same name (who doesn't?), and being able to distinguish which tags are useful for determining musical similarity and which are not (which may vary person to person).

    • [Raderad användare] sa...
    • Användare
    • 25 feb 2011, 16:15
    Sekir said:
    I can't agree with this. IMHO lastfm need more moderation (and moderators).
    For example let use Saga page. There is RAC artist, and RAC tag on page. It looks like defamation. Of course, many people knows that canadian Saga is not RAC band, but many is not all. And Saga is not only with this problem.


    ...and then you've got the trolls that go around tagging bands as "nsbm" when they are nothing of the kind. Irritating as all heck.

  • Sekir said:
    I can't agree with this. IMHO lastfm need more moderation (and moderators).
    For example let use Saga page. There is RAC artist, and RAC tag on page. It looks like defamation. Of course, many people knows that canadian Saga is not RAC band, but many is not all. And Saga is not only with this problem.
    I know, that lastfm doesn't delete tags, but they can make "hide tool" for confusing tools.
    And moderation is simplest (but longest) way to make different pages

    I have no idea what that has to do with what I said.

    I'm talking about artist tags. ie; Nivea ft. The Dream or kingdom hearts neither of which are real artists. The former should be Nivea the latter should be 下村陽子. As it is, we have to vote and hope that enough people agree that the correct way is the way it should be. A game isn't an artist, just because people want to label it that way for convenience to them is no reason for it to be there. There are quite a bit of people who are lazy like this. The requirements to get the page Nivea ft. The Dream redirected to the proper artist Nivea is far too much. Especially when the former has barely any listeners and no shouts. Thus, likely no one will visit there to correct the mistake.

    So those who do care about general accuracy need to seek others who care about general accuracy and vote and hope there are enough people to make it happen. We need to be able to bring about redirection much faster and actually be able to correct more things that are incorrect, like track listings for albums, album titles, artists, etc.

    I'm not talking about regular tags like; or Which by the way, are useless and should simply be removed. Tag trolls will do whatever they want and they can already tag as they want. I can go tag Hilary Duff with if I want to and it will be there. However, that has nothing to do with my post.

    So either read it for the first time, as I'm having a hard time believing you even did that, or re-read it with the above knowledge. My post is about the fact that whatever change last.fm makes it will cause tons of problems. Problems they will not be paying people to fix.

    So users need to be able to actually help fix it. What power we have now is not enough to fix the mess we have now, let alone a bigger one that will inevitably appear when/if they ever do anything about the multiple artists sharing a page problem.

    And who do you think mods are? They aren't employees.

    • darkFIN sa...
    • Användare
    • 3 mar 2011, 02:32

    Automated & manual Artist disambiguation: How to drastically improve this site,…

    I agree that something need to be done to address the disambig problem. A combination of country + (numerical designation) would be great! This would even improve upno the system that works so well on Discogshttp://www.discogs.com/artist/Samuel+%288%29. But you'd need to have each track disambiguated by users multiple times (say 10, before it's changed) to prevent mis-tagging. Even then, some will still slip through.

    As of now, my friends' band Samuel is sharing their page with an artist whose fans do not quite get along. That's not fun for anyone.

    www.MySpace.com/scQue >>> God, now I'm one of *those people*...

    www.DI.fm >>> streami--errrr, creeping--ambient whenever you want it.

    www.Fat-Pie.com >>> Fekking-brilliant. (Nuff said.)
    • snyde1 sa...
    • Abonnent
    • 8 maj 2011, 17:07
    Just raising this thread as people seem to be missing the long thread and starting their own.

    Improve your view of Last.fm - add some User Scripts.
    Did I hear that right? Mondegreens - for the misheard word. Like Odds? Can't get better than Even Odds!

    Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even to the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story.
  • ^ and they don't know about the 'search' function.

  • This is THE most annoying thing about the site at the moment, I fail to accept that it would be prohibitively difficult, if it cant be automatic, to allow manual placement of scrobbles into sub-artist pages. It is really jarring while I am developing my artist library to have to see photos of someone I have never heard of, WAY outside my preferred genres, instead of the artist I actually like.

    शांति में, बहुत शक्ति है| अगर हम धैर्य रखते तो आचे हैं|
  • Re: Automated & manual Artist disambiguation: How to drastically improve this site,…

    darkFIN said:
    I agree that something need to be done to address the disambig problem. A combination of country + (numerical designation) would be great! This would even improve upno the system that works so well on Discogshttp://www.discogs.com/artist/Samuel+%288%29. But you'd need to have each track disambiguated by users multiple times (say 10, before it's changed) to prevent mis-tagging. Even then, some will still slip through.

    As of now, my friends' band Samuel is sharing their page with an artist whose fans do not quite get along. That's not fun for anyone.


    I grow tired of having to refute that country will simply not work for disambiguation. a combination of artist>album>tracklist with a decision tree algorithm is all thats needed, if you disagree go ahead and read through this thread where I detail why.

    I've also become tired of the apathy and inaction by the staff on this and a host of other things they could do to still fill a niche on the web without trying to be another direct radio streaming service, which they are terrible at and CBS obviously doesn't want them competing with other subsidiaries they own.

    Hell. I got a new iPod nano-touch and when I realized it wasn't scrobbling I took a few minutes to find out why and it's a still unresolved issue on the lfm end that you can resolve yourself supposedly. But the process was such a pain in my ass I decided since it's never been worth this sites effort to actually make this site into what it truly can be, why should I put the effort back to give them any more of my data than they passively get from my iTunes scrobbles.


    Bottom line. Very little meaningful changes and updates are being done.

    This site from an official standpoint seems derelict and you can observe the entropy as a result.

    So why put any more of my time into it until I see they give a shit.

    This is the first time I've logged in in almost a month, I used to always have at least 1 lfm tab open at all times.

  • I think it can't be a big effort to divide the Artists.

    How about a flagging System that works like the Artist spelling system.
    You will find Legions of users who will seperate the data for you in about a fortnight I guess, because its the Users who are annoyed if there are 12 Artists named Atlantis whereof 3 are from Germany, 4 play progressive Rock and so on.

    There are allways enough Users who know which track and Album is from which Band. And if allthis is still a problem, you will divide them by the Names of the members. The Fans know them.

    And after that, you can divide the Artists by the track and Album IDs.

  • ^ I agree with this it doesn't really make sense why it can't be done. While there are artists from diff genres on one artist page it makes it confusing & probably annoys people as well. I personally want to be notified if im incorrectly scrobbing something or perhaps when i scrobble something new to make sure it's done correctly so later on i don't have to go & delete half of my scrobbles because of one little mistake.

    If users are already using the artist/track correction why isn't this being done for albums & artist disambiguation. Even if you had to shut the site down for a day or 2 in order to get it accomplished it would make the site look much better IMO.

    I see so many misspelled albums (and so many of the same albums, reissues, digipacks or limited editons..) & even has misspelled tracks its a mess.

  • P-Werchowenskij said:
    I think it can't be a big effort to divide the Artists.

    How about a flagging System that works like the Artist spelling system.


    LOL!! There are still artist tracks I've flagged for spelling that to this DAY haven't been fixed.

    You will find Legions of users who will seperate the data for you in about a fortnight I guess, because its the Users who are annoyed if there are 12 Artists named Atlantis whereof 3 are from Germany, 4 play progressive Rock and so on.

    What legion? They have run off most of their most devoted community members over the last 2 years. I always advocated allowing users who wanted to participate to have more ability to edit the site, did you even read the thread or just my most recent post.

    There are allways enough Users who know which track and Album is from which Band. And if allthis is still a problem, you will divide them by the Names of the members. The Fans know them.

    And after that, you can divide the Artists by the track and Album IDs.


    Damn man, you just solved everything, what did I even make this thread for 2 years ago.

  • The lack of an official response in a two year thread tells you everything you need to know. It would appear there is no work happening on this front, nor any plans to start, despite it being THE fundamental operational issue with the website...

    शांति में, बहुत शक्ति है| अगर हम धैर्य रखते तो आचे हैं|
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